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Author Topic: DS/MK Bootlegs sold in ordinary music shops  (Read 5432 times)

Offlinevgonis

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Re: DS/MK Bootlegs sold in ordinary music shops
« Reply #60 on: February 22, 2025, 11:19:56 PM »
Wow, I simply love these sort of discussions. Thank you Mr. C and ds1984 for initiating this.

I always wanted the chance to talk out of the box about such issues with people on both sides of the fence. I really haven't made my mind up, but I do have an opinion to add to the debate.

I think what complicates matters is the moral and logical barrier that the music industry has created by lobbying laws to extend their control and money making potential on recordings.

I mean that the first copyright laws for artists that their work could be replicated and sold in many copies, had a certain logic behind them: that the creators would be incentivized to create new, original works, that if they  were published and become successful, they would bring them monetary rewards for a specific period of time. It is crucial that the logic behind the law, was that an artist should benefit from his creations, for a period of time. It is a mental work, that takes time, talent and effort to be created and this should be recognized, by having an exclusive gain for a period of time. Effectively a monopoly.  This period was initially 30 years, from the first publication,  but this got extended in two ways.   (The recorded music came later in the game, when books were already moving from a 30 year copyright period, from first publication, to a 50 year period and later on to a 70 year period.) The laws for books had a second "technical" extension, when the 70 years were no longer after the first publication, but after the death of the writer! The law makers had a new reasoning behind this too. That the children of the authors should benefit from the sales  of their parents. But 70 years is a long time, it probably benefits grand children as well.

Now, the music industry took these laws and used them as a blueprint for the recorded music.   Bear in mind that until the early 50ies, the shellac medium for music was limited and quite fragile, so it allowed a much smaller degree of profit for the music industry. The music industry made most of its money from selling sheet music and copyright from live performances,  radio and a bit later jukeboxes. This of course changed with the coming of the 7'' singles and the LPs, especially from the late 50ies and acts like Elvis.
Now it is very crucial to see that since 2000, the  US copyright laws (in the EU there are different laws) have extended the copyright for recorded music, from 70 to more than 100 years from the commercial issue of the recording. (It is known as the Sonny Bono clause, since Sonny Bono, ex husband of Cher and well known composer of many fine songs, became a senator and introduced this law)  The only thing that they did not do, is the technical extension that the books got - ie. 70 years copyright after the death of the artist. But I expect them to try to do it eventually, since we just passed one of the  golden artists - first  recordings Louis Armstrong,  while we are getting close to the dates of one of the first geese with the golden eggs, Frank Sinatra and then Elvis and then the Beatles. Who would have thought, that what we considered disposable music, would become so profitable, even 100 years after. Plus the added bonus of samples, that are the building blocks of contemporary music would probably force the record companies to lobby for a further extension.

Sony has been known to rush releasing Bob Dylan unpublished recordings in the minimum required number, and cheap looking editions, to reset the clock of copyright, so they gain time to prepare a more presentable  official edition later on. Dylan, has sold his rights for physical editions already. Springsteen did the same and lately Pink Floyd as well.
The Beatles are doing the same reset the clock thing with the new remixes. A new remix is considered a new work and resets the clock. Of course the original mixes and recordings older than 50 years,  in the parts of the world that have not followed the US copyright laws, are considered public domain, so you can find them quite cheaply. It goes without saying that  one may question the quality of said editions, since the master tapes are still the property of the original company or artist, but still... On the quality matter, after the MoFi scandal a couple of years ago, which in my opinion was more of a technical foul than a quality one,  many people's perspective have radically changed. After all how many people can afford to buy records that cost 100 Euros, when their entry level turntable costs as much?  But this is another interesting topic for discussion.

A curious thing can be witnessed in some of those cheaper issues. The sleeves are different, because the copyright laws for printed works is still 70 years in EU!

To bring matters to a conclusion, I find the excess of 100 years of copyright, in music, to be not only counter productive for the world, but also a travesty of logic. One can argue that the streaming services (that amount to close to 90% of the music industry revenue) allow people to have  access to as much music they have time to listen, yet these streaming services are known to pay very little to the actual artists, even those with millions of streams and also are known to be easily manipulated, to produce profits for artists nobody actually wishes to listen. And the streaming services are law abiding.
So this leaves us with the physical product, which is 5% CDs and 5% vinyl records. With their manufacturing cost actually only going up, for various reasons, stock holders revenue being the main one (Dylan, Springsteen, Pink Floyd etc selling their rights for physical products) , the records are priced as collectibles right from the factory.  Who can pay 40+ euros for the latest Taylor Swift album? And as ds1984 correctly notes, as a fan, who can afford to buy all editions to get all the recorded material? Is this a marketing ploy that someone can dismiss by saying:"Nobody forces you to buy it", when exactly said editions target specifically the fans and the fans only? So the recordings that the artist has not decided to issue, probably deeming them not too commercial for a wider audience, should remain unpublished forever? Destroyed? And taking them a step further, never to be recorded?  Would this be a loss to the collective knowledge of mankind? Or should we just consider them as merely disposable fun and not care for them, unless there is a financial interest behind them?  Is the logic of the copyright a way to prevent information - knowledge to be wide spread, or to award the creator with some financial incentive - by creating a monopoly for specific amount of time?

I am really asking, these are not rhetorical questions. 

I think that the corporate greed that we experience nowadays, should make us look at the bigger picture with  different eyes. One may ask, that if I was a musician, would I not mind if my work is bootlegged, so I don't gain anything from the sales? ds1984 replies in the part where the artist has no intention of releasing specific recordings anyway. I could say, that these laws direct our whole society to specific ways of viewing the world, our relations with other humans, our very own humanity and logic.  And the results are not very promising, with the current way of doing things. So, yes, this is only a tiny flaw in the  society machine, and we can not solely blame the copyright, when the whole machine is collapsing. We need a new machine. That will reward the creative people, but not in excess. That will value creativity, but also see the value of everyday productive work. One that values the works of the mind, but also pay fairly for the manual labor. I don't want to sound political, I just write these, in order to emphasize that the ever expanding copyright laws, in all aspects of life, from copyrighting seeds,  genes, to extending copyright of computer programs, useful patents, down to music, literature and photography,  are taking their toll on society and are a part of the bigger problem, because they twist fundamental logic. The ones that gain from them after all are only shareholders. Even the musicians are not benefited on average. Only a few very prolific and successful composers. The rest are on the losing end as well, working from day to day to make ends meet.         
Come on, it is not funny anymore.

OfflineChris W

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Re: DS/MK Bootlegs sold in ordinary music shops
« Reply #61 on: February 23, 2025, 10:38:06 AM »
Ironically, most of the points you make were invented by the tech industry to line their pockets, transferring great wealth from thousands of musicians to a hand full of tech barons like Bezos and Daniel Ek.
Copyright is too long? You will struggle to find any artist that agrees with your view. The tech industry actually violated copyright in order to establish the dominance of Youtube and Spotify. I have been arguing against piracy, then streaming for years and the (tech invented) bullet point claiming copyright is anti-innovation and anti-consumer has been thrown back at me thousands of times.
New vinyl LPs ARE expensive (over priced), that's because they have become fashionable, often as a result of online forums and social media.
I could buy the new Taylor Swift album on CD for £15 maximum, often less ($20-ish). I regularly buy new release CDs for £12 to £15. Classic albums like Rumours or Brothers In Arms sell on CD for £8 to £10.
The cheapest (legal) way to access music today is CD.

Offlineds1984

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Re: DS/MK Bootlegs sold in ordinary music shops
« Reply #62 on: February 23, 2025, 11:15:45 AM »
Ironically, most of the points you make were invented by the tech industry to line their pockets, transferring great wealth from thousands of musicians to a hand full of tech barons like Bezos and Daniel Ek.

I agree.

Copyright is too long? You will struggle to find any artist that agrees with your view.

We are talking 70 years,  even 100 years after their DEATH.

So in your view, in 2025 Ravel's Bolero should still not be public domain ?

Or Mickey Mouse ?

We are talking about long time dead artists.

Come on Chris, these extension laws are not to support artist but the business and the corporates making money that you just pointed in first sentence.

The tech industry actually violated copyright in order to establish the dominance of Youtube and Spotify. I have been arguing against piracy, then streaming for years and the (tech invented) bullet point claiming copyright is anti-innovation and anti-consumer has been thrown back at me thousands of times.

You are touching a true point : the music industry only defend artist when the interest goes the same way, but othewise still the same song : I am the producer, I am the one who put the money, I am the one that takes all the profits. The artists are my feeding slaves.

I am aware of how records company are using their trick to collect money through clauses on contracts the way not to have to give the artist their due.

And lets talk about I thnk Warner who illegally copyrighted Happy Birthday and collected money for decade...

New vinyl LPs ARE expensive (over priced), that's because they have become fashionable, often as a result of online forums and social media.

I think that LP trend is the addition of several factors, yes fashionable is one of them. I am not into LP anymore but I got friends that are so happy with vinyle.


I could buy the new Taylor Swift album on CD for £15 maximum, often less ($20-ish). I regularly buy new release CDs for £12 to £15. Classic albums like Rumours or Brothers In Arms sell on CD for £8 to £10.
The cheapest (legal) way to access music today is CD.

CD or legal download from a single track.

 


   
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OfflineChris W

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Re: DS/MK Bootlegs sold in ordinary music shops
« Reply #63 on: February 23, 2025, 12:45:52 PM »
Artist estates want copyright of 70 to 100 years.
The absolute main issue is about exploitation, not money. Paul Mccartney for example is angry that his songs are being used to promote products he doesn't agree with (like meat products). His children feel likewise (Stella, Mary, James etc).
You see someone like the current president of the USA unable to play most music at his rallies, other than that made by a couple of supporters.
That's why people value copyright. It is about controlling your art and your legacy.

Your take on record labels is very old school.
Very, very few records are made with label money these days. The home studio and music software revolution has led to artists making their own records, without the meddling of record labels. Then they either release as an independent, or if they are a very commercial artist, they license their music to a big label, where it will achieve a much wider promotion globally.

Whatever you say, you won't find many artists criticising copyright. Copyright was trashed by the tech industry and ever since then records have been virtually worthless and the majority of musicians much poorer.

Offlineds1984

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Re: DS/MK Bootlegs sold in ordinary music shops
« Reply #64 on: February 23, 2025, 03:30:47 PM »
Copyright is both about control AND money.

Yourself talked first about money as bootleg record money not going to the artist.

Money is the blood, without money nothing is possible.

The main question is how the money irrigate the body.

You can't separate money form control and control from money.


So let's talk about Paul McCartney and control over the Beatles songs.

I will sum up the story so everybody can understannd what happened.

The detailled story is way more complicated but in the end what I am writing is what happened.


First
Editors rights

When you are writing song you are selling your editor rights to a company to edit your songs.

And basically this is the editor right that have control on what you can do with the song or what you can't.
Contractual clauses.

Second
Taxes.
An individual earning money from your work such as author rights are way more taxed than being a share holder of a company.
That means that artist have better to get revenues through a company.


Paul controled 15% of the shares in the company that was owning the Lennon McCartney publisihing rights (Northern Song Ltd).

Things turned bad over the control of the company and as a result Paul and John sold their share in October 1969 for £3.5 million.

From that point he had lost his editor rights on the songs he wrote.

This is why today his Beatles songs are being used to promote products he doesn't agree with (like meat products)

Paul has learned the hard lesson, for his successful career as Wings or solo he put up MPL Communication and earned editor right control over his post Beatles songs.

May I have to explain the MJ episode ?

What I want to say is that current copyright system is not primarily beneficing for artist.

The current copyright system is mostly beneficing to corporate business first.

In this system artist only comes second don't you think  :think

« Last Edit: February 23, 2025, 03:41:55 PM by ds1984 »
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OfflineChris W

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Re: DS/MK Bootlegs sold in ordinary music shops
« Reply #65 on: February 23, 2025, 04:36:03 PM »
Then why are artists all in support of copyright?

Things only changed for McCartney after the Michael Jackson acquisition. Until then no Beatles song had been used in advertising.

Nothing is exclusive is it? I said artists want control over their work, which is achieved by copyright.
They also want to be recompensed for their work.
There are many copyrights involved - the composition is one copyright, the recording is another, separate copyright.
The record labels owned the recordings in the past, that's why they pursued bootleggers and pirates.

Offlineds1984

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Re: DS/MK Bootlegs sold in ordinary music shops
« Reply #66 on: February 23, 2025, 06:55:45 PM »
Then why are artists all in support of copyright?

Things only changed for McCartney after the Michael Jackson acquisition. Until then no Beatles song had been used in advertising.

Nothing is exclusive is it? I said artists want control over their work, which is achieved by copyright.
They also want to be recompensed for their work.
There are many copyrights involved - the composition is one copyright, the recording is another, separate copyright.
The record labels owned the recordings in the past, that's why they pursued bootleggers and pirates.

Paul's family will already still getting the money 70 years after Paul's passing.

Do you understand the word DEAD ?

How many workers are still feeding their family after their death?

That IS copyright.

So I ask you again do you find relevant that in 2025 Ravel's Bolero is now part of the public domain ?

« Last Edit: February 23, 2025, 07:17:45 PM by ds1984 »
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OfflineBilly’s Tune

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Re: DS/MK Bootlegs sold in ordinary music shops
« Reply #67 on: February 23, 2025, 07:55:00 PM »
Blimey. What a very unfriendly forum this really can be at times.

Offlineds1984

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Re: DS/MK Bootlegs sold in ordinary music shops
« Reply #68 on: February 23, 2025, 08:59:54 PM »
Expressing opinion may not always sound friendly.

But Billy what is your opinion about Ravel's Bolero entering the public domain?

Or the way the music industry is still organized to spoil the artists?

« Last Edit: February 23, 2025, 09:03:12 PM by ds1984 »
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Offlinepeterromer

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Re: DS/MK Bootlegs sold in ordinary music shops
« Reply #69 on: February 24, 2025, 08:13:53 AM »
Expressing opinion may not always sound friendly.

But Billy what is your opinion about Ravel's Bolero entering the public domain?

Or the way the music industry is still organized to spoil the artists?

All very interesting, but these two topics are taking another direction than my original post.
Cheers Peter

OfflineChris W

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Re: DS/MK Bootlegs sold in ordinary music shops
« Reply #70 on: February 24, 2025, 09:09:07 AM »
Or the way the music industry is still organized to spoil the artists?

And what is your job in the music industry?

Again, artists support copyright 100%. You cannot get away from that fact.
Going back to the original post.....
Bootlegs in regular shops was extremely rare. Artists don't generally like their live shows to be distributed without their permission. But aren't motivated to try and stem the tsunami. Record labels do not like illegal copies of released albums to be sold by bootleggers.

Offlinedustyvalentino

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Re: DS/MK Bootlegs sold in ordinary music shops
« Reply #71 on: February 24, 2025, 10:35:25 AM »
Blimey. What a very unfriendly forum this really can be at times.

Have I missed something? Seems like a good discussion based on facts and opinions?
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Offlineds1984

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Re: DS/MK Bootlegs sold in ordinary music shops
« Reply #72 on: February 24, 2025, 01:28:03 PM »
Or the way the music industry is still organized to spoil the artists?

And what is your job in the music industry?

Again, artists support copyright 100%. You cannot get away from that fact.
Going back to the original post.....
Bootlegs in regular shops was extremely rare. Artists don't generally like their live shows to be distributed without their permission. But aren't motivated to try and stem the tsunami. Record labels do not like illegal copies of released albums to be sold by bootleggers.

Hi,

I do not work directly for the music industry but I have been surrounded by artist including one that reached the N°1 spot on french RTL radio chart, an independant record producer, the owner of an independant label, and an ex Warner France executive that is also credited on records production team and receive royalties for that.

I will answer other questions later.

 
« Last Edit: February 24, 2025, 01:33:46 PM by ds1984 »
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Offlineds1984

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Re: DS/MK Bootlegs sold in ordinary music shops
« Reply #73 on: February 24, 2025, 06:52:02 PM »
Again, artists support copyright 100%. You cannot get away from that fact.

Of course copyright system is supported by artists.

Still my question about Ravel's Bolero remains unanswered...




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Offlineds1984

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Re: DS/MK Bootlegs sold in ordinary music shops
« Reply #74 on: February 24, 2025, 07:08:31 PM »
Going back to the original post.....
Bootlegs in regular shops was extremely rare. Artists don't generally like their live shows to be distributed without their permission. But aren't motivated to try and stem the tsunami. Record labels do not like illegal copies of released albums to be sold by bootleggers.

During the 90's the bootlegs spreaded through regular shops in my country.

The French FNAC enseigne ( equivalent to the UK HMV stores) was even raid by the SACEM.
Well they had a favour treatment. A regurlar shop would be heavily fined - I know some, and I personaly witnessed a raid.
But the Fnac being the Fnac, they were only asked to remove them and case closed.

But FNAC is selling bootlegs again in 2025, look at this : DIRE STRAITS feat. Mark Knopfler - Radio Transmissions Coffret 6 CD

Again I exclude illegal copies of released albums from the discussion.

This activity is just basic counterfeiting and way more destructive. 

« Last Edit: February 24, 2025, 07:18:57 PM by ds1984 »
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