DS/MK Bootlegs sold in ordinary music shops

[Chris W]

Which real thing.
Live shows change every time they are performed.
A studio record is designed to be a historic document played over and over for many years. A live show is an immediate experience, begi=un then gone in two hours.
the problem with cell phones and bootleg recordings is that artists start playing safe, stop pushing the envelope, experimenting.
You used to be able to do warm up shows before tours, now everything goes global a few hours after the show (Youtube).
This IS the point - the audience, the fan loses, because artists play it safe every time they lay live now.
It is a fact and has been happening for at least ten years now.

[wayaman]

Which real thing? The one that happens on stage, the one that people at the gig lives.

That's why fans gets multiple bootlegs, to enjoy the differences between each gig, the real thing that happens every night.

[Chris W]

I know what 'fans' want, I'm just pointing out the negative aspect of it - for the fans.
It is meant to be ephemeral. A fleeting moment that we all share together, band and audience. Once you record it it changes. And what has ACTUALLY happened is that bands have started playing safe, not pushing the envelope and not experimenting.

[wayaman]

Chris, don't get me wrong, I get your point, but I'm talking about the bootlegs of DS that were very prior to what you're talking about regarding bands nowadays playing safe.

By the way, playing safe is a choice if you give so much importance to people recording you. You can ignore them and play what you want as you want.

[Chris W]

I know. I was answering the point about why bands didn't like bootlegs, why they weren't sold in shops and why they weren't more widely available. Using the cell phone revolution as an ultimate example of the negative of allowing permanent access to what is meant to be an in-person moment between musicians and audience.
No, playing it safe isn't a choice? Have you ever done anything creative - taken a photograph, drawn a picture, recorded a song demo and not wanted anyone to see or hear it and comment before you were happy with it? It's human nature.
Personally, I have seen live clips on Youtube and seen hundreds of comments below the video saying how bad the playing is, or how out of tune the singing is, etc, etc... So that's why artists don't like it.
Again, you 'can ignore it' but it's not human nature.
Artists also like to control the quality of the recording. Bootlegs are either hand held recorder (by audience member), or a feed off the desk, neither of which produces an accurate or best quality audio copy of what you heard in your seat at the show.

[Robson]

"...neither of which produces an accurate or best quality audio copy of what you heard in your seat at the show"

There is one exception. MK concerts recorded and sold officially after the concert. (Five concert tours) 

[Chris W]

MK concerts recorded and sold officially after the concert.

Which then obviously aren't bootlegs, or unofficial in any way.

[Robson]

MK concerts recorded and sold officially after the concert.

Which then obviously aren't bootlegs, or unofficial in any way.

Yes, I didn't think about bootlegs

[vgonis]

I know what 'fans' want, I'm just pointing out the negative aspect of it - for the fans.
It is meant to be ephemeral. A fleeting moment that we all share together, band and audience. Once you record it it changes. And what has ACTUALLY happened is that bands have started playing safe, not pushing the envelope and not experimenting.

The best argument I have heard! Thank you Mr. C.
I have been to many live shows and I was blown away by the performance, but I was surprised when I listened to random recordings from the same concert and I noticed  mistakes which eluded me when I was in front of the stage and broke the spell of the live experience. So I understand that post production has to be applied in order to make up for the missing excitement of actually playing live. 
So I quite agree with it, but since die hard fans already know the limits of their fav artist, they also adore their mistakes, because exactly the are not meant to be seen/heard. Because they are out of the ordinary and they already know the ordinary.  And artists should not be afraid to push the envelope, live, because the excitement of the live performance is there for those who paid the ticket. And nobody pays a ticket to boo the artist!

But yes,  live performances that are unofficial may carry said mistakes, which didn't matter much in the physical product era, but now with youtube it hurts the artist when are heard by indifferent people. So a new balance should be found, to please both the artist and feed the fan. 

[Chris W]

Thank you.
Also, there is a difference in performing for video and record. Playing live, in the moment, many of us push the boundaries, experiment.
That is how some songs like Sultans and Romeo went from 5 minute recordings to 12 minute live epics.
But you don't get to that point overnight. Mistakes might be made along the way. Someone might come up with a bit (a keyboard intro) that turns out to be amazing, or it might turn out to be a bad idea, a wrong turn.
This is how shows evolved before every performance appeared on Youtube within a couple of hours of the last note being played.
I just did a tour and two shows (back to back) were recorded for a live album.
The first night I played as perfectly as I could. It was my banker. Having played the correct version of every song, the second night I pushed the boat out, was a bit more experimental. This gives the artist the choice to pick the version they prefer.
Sometimes you make a mistake or your experiment goes wrong, in which case you really need to have registered a perfect version of the song, otherwise you can't put it on the live album, or you are into extensive and expensive post production fixes and overdubs.

[Love Expresso]

Thank you.
Also, there is a difference in performing for video and record. Playing live, in the moment, many of us push the boundaries, experiment.
That is how some songs like Sultans and Romeo went from 5 minute recordings to 12 minute live epics.
But you don't get to that point overnight. Mistakes might be made along the way. Someone might come up with a bit (a keyboard intro) that turns out to be amazing, or it might turn out to be a bad idea, a wrong turn.
This is how shows evolved before every performance appeared on Youtube within a couple of hours of the last note being played.
I just did a tour and two shows (back to back) were recorded for a live album.
The first night I played as perfectly as I could. It was my banker. Having played the correct version of every song, the second night I pushed the boat out, was a bit more experimental. This gives the artist the choice to pick the version they prefer.
Sometimes you make a mistake or your experiment goes wrong, in which case you really need to have registered a perfect version of the song, otherwise you can't put it on the live album, or you are into extensive and expensive post production fixes and overdubs.

So you are talking about a THE THE Live album here?

LE

[dustyvalentino]

Hi everyone

Friend of the forum and all round good guy Ed Bicknell has provided yet more responses, the below are all from him.

[dustyvalentino]

Well, well, well.
For the first time since I engaged with you lucky people, YOU are telling me something I didn’t know!
So as usual I’m going to go thru the posts in this thread by number ( because it’s the only way I can follow my own mental process!) starting with Peter’s but before that, this is a case of “ follow the money ”.
Nothing new there then.
The simple answer to the legit shops thing is I have no idea!  None.
Back then I didn’t care about bootlegs - they were just part of the way things were and impossible to stop.
I recall once meeting with a v v high up UK Gov drugs official who explained how bootlegs =cash=drug trade , but this was quite a while ago……90’s.
So you had “ fan “ bootlegs and also “ professional “ bootlegs which were sold for money via whatever outlets made themselves available eg the shop Peter refers to.
This applied to any big act ie where there was a demand.
My pal Peter Grant was one of the few who would go into shops selling Led Zeppelin BL'’s and cause a bit of havoc ( he was 350 lbs back then!) but as even he said to me, “ it’s a waste of time. The minute I’ve gone they’re back at it ” … so I took the opposite position….I would ENCOURAGE it - if people wanted to record, film, take unlimited photos then fine.
The venues were sometimes a problem because of “ policy ” but as far as my team eg tour manager, road crew/caterers etc were concerned - if they saw anyone recording fine, let them get on with it.
Now of course some of the pea brains in the record cos protested - “ it’s affecting our sales” ( if they were illegal bootlegs how did they know? ) and that’s where Mark’s line about fans having already got the records came into play.
I wonder where he heard that ? 🤡
As you must have realised by now I had nothing but contempt for the senior management at Polygram. NOT the people who did the work, not Warners in the US, I mean the idiots in Baarn in Holland and London running the thing who had NO comprehension at all of what’s it’s like to be a “ fan “ or as far as I could tell, ever listened to music ( well maybe a bit of Ravel’s Bolero during their once a year sex with a rubber doll).
So, here we go starting with Peter’s post.
No idea. I’ve never seen or heard of that one or how it would find its way into a legit shop. The fact the staff didn't realise suggests to me it came in via some record co channel ( not sold to them over the counter) but that seems unlikely. So no idea.

I always wondered how I managed to buy "Golden Demos" at the largest music store in Chicago

I’ve never heard of Golden Demos, only showers.

During the late 90's it was very usual.

I bought many bootlegs in ordinary music shops, more than half of my big collection.

Not very common in the UK but in the non multiples chain “independent” shops, yes, they would appear.

[dustyvalentino]

mostly it was due to a legal loophole being exploited in Italy which "allowed" them to produce and sell these.
i bought that exact same (and many others) boot back in the day and to me it was VERY clear that this was not an official release
I am not sure as to how you expect Ed to explain how this was possible as this was not his "business model"
the only thing he did was not forbid taping (THNX ED!)

Hmmm…never heard of that “ loophole”. Thank you for getting me off the hook!

I bought "Live USA" in a supermarket and also "On The Road To Philadelphia" in a record store. This Zürich one I was able to order from jpc back in the day, I guess Pottel will know jpc. Even the big double size Basel Box I bought in a totally mainstream record store in my hometown.

LE

Don't know any of these or how they got into shops. You’d have to follow the money back then.

mostly it was due to a legal loophole being exploited in Italy which "allowed" them to produce and sell these.
i bought that exact same (and many others) boot back in the day and to me it was VERY clear that this was not an official release
I am not sure as to how you expect Ed to explain how this was possible as this was not his "business model"
the only thing he did was not forbid taping (THNX ED!)

I  am not expecting anything. As I wrote I am curious if He knows something that we dont.

Ha!  It appears you know something I don't!
You don't need a capital H on “He”. I am not God. (Yet.)

These releases from early 90s were known as "protection gap" bootlegs.  There is a book about bootlegs which references Dire Straits bringing legal action against "The Swingin Pig" label for the production of the "European Tour" album, which was recorded at Basel and which would have undermined the On the Night album.   Clearly though DS had no problem with fans recording for their own purposes as is documented elsewhere on this forum.

In the UK since I've been collecting I've never seen any unofficial material in name brand shops until the last few years (Brexit any coincidence I don't know).   Now from the likes of HMV or Juno you can easily get hold of the "radio broadcast" concerts, which by the way in some instances were never actually broadcast, they are just losing a loophole that I would love someone to explain to me.


Text here re Basel and the "protection gap" bootlegs of the late 80s, early 90s:

By 1992, all three functioning first-generation European CD bootleg labels
were having their fair share of problems. Swingin' Pig was finding it
increasingly difficult to get their product into record stores. The
German division of the IFPI was seizing on the slightest breach of the
country's hazy boundaries of copyright. In one instance, Schubert
apparently escaped a lengthy legal battle with E M I by providing
evidence that their retail chain H M V was stocking his titles, a clear
case of double standards. A case resulting from a Doors live in
Stockholm C D , one of Swingin' Pig's first releases, also hung over
Schubert's head throughout the early nineties, pending a decision
from the Supreme Court (the set was unquestionably recorded after
Sweden's ratification of the Rome Convention). A double-set of
Dire Straits recorded in Basel, Switzerland, in 1992. also resulted
in an interim judgement against Swingin' Pig, on the grounds
that Dire Straits were citizens of the EC and were entitled to the
same protection as German nationals.



Source: whole book download here "Bootleg"

https://monoskop.org/images/a/a4/Heylin_Clinton_Bootleg_The_Secret_History_of_the_Other_Recording_Industry.pdf

Educational.
I can 100% tell you WE ( DS or any of my acts ) did NOT bring any legal action against anybody for any reason anywhere EVER in my period of management that I can recall .
Every artist who came to see me was told that we do not sue anybody EVER on your behalf. Waste of time and money and nearly all agreements in music are unenforceable anyway.
Until now I have never heard of this release or the Swingin' Pig label.
So it follows I was not bothered by OTN being undermined ( I was more concerned it was coming out at all 👺).
Radio broadcasts I know nothing about and back then if you were going to broadcast anything audio or visual you knew it was going to be copied.
Interesting text. It looks to me like these companies eg SP, were being sued/injuncted by either Polygram ( in our case) or the IFPI, most likely the latter.

[dustyvalentino]

These releases from early 90s were known as "protection gap" bootlegs.  There is a book about bootlegs which references Dire Straits bringing legal action against "The Swingin Pig" label for the production of the "European Tour" album, which was recorded at Basel and which would have undermined the On the Night album.   Clearly though DS had no problem with fans recording for their own purposes as is documented elsewhere on this forum.

Well I had already listend to the Basel and the Nîmes concerts to death before OTN was released.

Uncle Ed would probably give some explanations (I think he already did) about why not release as soon as 1993 an extended OTN live CD boxset instead of of this shortened 1CD + 1maxi single CD combo.

Sorry. Are you dead?
Am I an uncle to someone who died listening to DS? That would be a first.
My condolences anyway if you are a ghost 👻.
I can't recall what I said. I think we decided not to duplicate songs which had been on Alchemy as far as possible and as per LOG I did not want the audience to have to pay a higher price for anything other than a standard CD plus single.
Not you lot..I mean the “general fan”
In the event OTN sold 5 million + pre streaming which for a live album is excellent.

These releases from early 90s were known as "protection gap" bootlegs.  There is a book about bootlegs which references Dire Straits bringing legal action against "The Swingin Pig" label for the production of the "European Tour" album, which was recorded at Basel and which would have undermined the On the Night album.   Clearly though DS had no problem with fans recording for their own purposes as is documented elsewhere on this forum.

Well I had already listend to the Basel and the Nîmes concerts to death before OTN was released.

Uncle Ed would probably give some explanations (I think he already did) about why not release as soon as 1993 an extended OTN live CD boxset instead of of this shortened 1CD + 1maxi single CD combo.

Commercial reasons obviously.

The 1992 tour ended in October 1992, and MK and Guy wanted to handle it directly, althought it was only Guy who did it apparently, and with all the preparations needed, no way to release it before 1993.

And then, for commercial reasons, it was impossible to release it double, and by the time, cdsingles were usual so they took advantage of it to release some more songs in a maxicd.

I don't see any mystery there.

Funny…I should have read b4 I answered above. Yes…you are saying what I’m saying just differently. As you say, no mystery.

As far as I'm aware it is always illegal.
My brother worked in a record store for years and they would never stock an unofficial release. Obviously some did.....in order to make money and probably presuming record labels and bands wouldn't patrol every record store on earth in order to catch out the rare instances of a bootleg being sold.
I do know artists would go to Notting Hill markets in London and confiscate cassette bootlegs in the 70's and 80's.

A recording is a permanent record. So as an artist you don't want to release recordings from a gig where your guitar was out of tune for a couple of songs, or you had a nightmare show because the monitoring was bad....etc...etc.....
Before the iPhone, concerts were fleeting affairs. Any mistake or tech issues came and went in the blink if an eye.A Dire Straits bootleg is like a novel that hasn't quite been finished, with grammatical errors and spelling mistakes, or a rough cut of a movie that is 2.5 hours long instead of 1.5 hours. That goes for every artist.
Of course, completist fans love to hear the 'work in progress', but it's no surprise that music artists (and novelists and film makers) don't want anyone to see or hear their creative product until it is FINISHED.

CHRIS!!!!  My goalkeeper and correct as always.
No legit record store or chain back then would stock bootlegs precisely because of the legal position, the power of the major labels to literally put them out of business, copyright issues and just not a good thing to do ethically.
Soho was another place small shops would sell BL’s.
Chris’ last bit is entirely correct.