DS/MK Bootlegs sold in ordinary music shops

[peterromer]

Hi
I wondered if Mr Ed (and the rest of you) has an explanation as to how this bootleg recording (DS Zurich 91´) could end up in the ordinary music stores as an official live album ? 
Plus: Have you guys other examples of DS/MK bootlegs being able to enter the shops as official material ?

I saw this particular one in a shop here in Denmark back in 91´or 92´, and of course bought it right away.
I was disappointed of the sound quality and learned later from the guy in the shop, that they were told it was fake and removed from the shelves. Some time later OTN arrived.   

[Robson]

I always wondered how I managed to buy "Golden Demos" at the largest music store in Chicago

[wayaman]

During the late 90's it was very usual.

I bought many bootlegs in ordinary music shops, more than half of my big collection.

[Pottel]

mostly it was due to a legal loophole being exploited in Italy which "allowed" them to produce and sell these.
i bought that exact same (and many others) boot back in the day and to me it was VERY clear that this was not an official release
I am not sure as to how you expect Ed to explain how this was possible as this was not his "business model"
the only thing he did was not forbid taping (THNX ED!)

[Love Expresso]

I bought "Live USA" in a supermarket and also "On The Road To Philadelphia" in a record store. This Zürich one I was able to order from jpc back in the day, I guess Pottel will know jpc. Even the big double size Basel Box I bought in a totally mainstream record store in my hometown.

LE

[peterromer]

mostly it was due to a legal loophole being exploited in Italy which "allowed" them to produce and sell these.
i bought that exact same (and many others) boot back in the day and to me it was VERY clear that this was not an official release
I am not sure as to how you expect Ed to explain how this was possible as this was not his "business model"
the only thing he did was not forbid taping (THNX ED!)

I  am not expecting anything. As I wrote I am curious if He knows something that we dont.

[the visitor]

These releases from early 90s were known as "protection gap" bootlegs.  There is a book about bootlegs which references Dire Straits bringing legal action against "The Swingin Pig" label for the production of the "European Tour" album, which was recorded at Basel and which would have undermined the On the Night album.   Clearly though DS had no problem with fans recording for their own purposes as is documented elsewhere on this forum.

In the UK since I've been collecting I've never seen any unofficial material in name brand shops until the last few years (Brexit any coincidence I don't know).   Now from the likes of HMV or Juno you can easily get hold of the "radio broadcast" concerts, which by the way in some instances were never actually broadcast, they are just losing a loophole that I would love someone to explain to me.


Text here re Basel and the "protection gap" bootlegs of the late 80s, early 90s:

By 1992, all three functioning first-generation European CD bootleg labels
were having their fair share of problems. Swingin' Pig was finding it
increasingly difficult to get their product into record stores. The
German division of the IFPI was seizing on the slightest breach of the
country's hazy boundaries of copyright. In one instance, Schubert
apparently escaped a lengthy legal battle with E M I by providing
evidence that their retail chain H M V was stocking his titles, a clear
case of double standards. A case resulting from a Doors live in
Stockholm C D , one of Swingin' Pig's first releases, also hung over
Schubert's head throughout the early nineties, pending a decision
from the Supreme Court (the set was unquestionably recorded after
Sweden's ratification of the Rome Convention). A double-set of
Dire Straits recorded in Basel, Switzerland, in 1992. also resulted
in an interim judgement against Swingin' Pig, on the grounds
that Dire Straits were citizens of the EC and were entitled to the
same protection as German nationals.



Source: whole book download here "Bootleg"

https://monoskop.org/images/a/a4/Heylin_Clinton_Bootleg_The_Secret_History_of_the_Other_Recording_Industry.pdf

[peterromer]

These releases from early 90s were known as "protection gap" bootlegs.  There is a book about bootlegs which references Dire Straits bringing legal action against "The Swingin Pig" label for the production of the "European Tour" album, which was recorded at Basel and which would have undermined the On the Night album.   Clearly though DS had no problem with fans recording for their own purposes as is documented elsewhere on this forum.

In the UK since I've been collecting I've never seen any unofficial material in name brand shops until the last few years (Brexit any coincidence I don't know).   Now from the likes of HMV or Juno you can easily get hold of the "radio broadcast" concerts, which by the way in some instances were never actually broadcast, they are just losing a loophole that I would love someone to explain to me.


Text here re Basel and the "protection gap" bootlegs of the late 80s, early 90s:

By 1992, all three functioning first-generation European CD bootleg labels
were having their fair share of problems. Swingin' Pig was finding it
increasingly difficult to get their product into record stores. The
German division of the IFPI was seizing on the slightest breach of the
country's hazy boundaries of copyright. In one instance, Schubert
apparently escaped a lengthy legal battle with E M I by providing
evidence that their retail chain H M V was stocking his titles, a clear
case of double standards. A case resulting from a Doors live in
Stockholm C D , one of Swingin' Pig's first releases, also hung over
Schubert's head throughout the early nineties, pending a decision
from the Supreme Court (the set was unquestionably recorded after
Sweden's ratification of the Rome Convention). A double-set of
Dire Straits recorded in Basel, Switzerland, in 1992. also resulted
in an interim judgement against Swingin' Pig, on the grounds
that Dire Straits were citizens of the EC and were entitled to the
same protection as German nationals.



Source: whole book download here "Bootleg"

https://monoskop.org/images/a/a4/Heylin_Clinton_Bootleg_The_Secret_History_of_the_Other_Recording_Industry.pdf

Thanks for sharing your insight.

[ds1984]

These releases from early 90s were known as "protection gap" bootlegs.  There is a book about bootlegs which references Dire Straits bringing legal action against "The Swingin Pig" label for the production of the "European Tour" album, which was recorded at Basel and which would have undermined the On the Night album.   Clearly though DS had no problem with fans recording for their own purposes as is documented elsewhere on this forum.

Well I had already listend to the Basel and the Nîmes concerts to death before OTN was released.

Uncle Ed would probably give some explanations (I think he already did) about why not release as soon as 1993 an extended OTN live CD boxset instead of of this shortened 1CD + 1maxi single CD combo.

[Jules]

These releases from early 90s were known as "protection gap" bootlegs.  There is a book about bootlegs which references Dire Straits bringing legal action against "The Swingin Pig" label for the production of the "European Tour" album, which was recorded at Basel and which would have undermined the On the Night album.   Clearly though DS had no problem with fans recording for their own purposes as is documented elsewhere on this forum.

Well I had already listend to the Basel and the Nîmes concerts to death before OTN was released.

Uncle Ed would probably give some explanations (I think he already did) about why not release as soon as 1993 an extended OTN live CD boxset instead of of this shortened 1CD + 1maxi single CD combo.

Commercial reasons obviously.

The 1992 tour ended in October 1992, and MK and Guy wanted to handle it directly, althought it was only Guy who did it apparently, and with all the preparations needed, no way to release it before 1993.

And then, for commercial reasons, it was impossible to release it double, and by the time, cdsingles were usual so they took advantage of it to release some more songs in a maxicd.

I don't see any mystery there.

[Chris W]

As far as I'm aware it is always illegal.
My brother worked in a record store for years and they would never stock an unofficial release. Obviously some did.....in order to make money and probably presuming record labels and bands wouldn't patrol every record store on earth in order to catch out the rare instances of a bootleg being sold.
I do know artists would go to Notting Hill markets in London and confiscate cassette bootlegs in the 70's and 80's.

A recording is a permanent record. So as an artist you don't want to release recordings from a gig where your guitar was out of tune for a couple of songs, or you had a nightmare show because the monitoring was bad....etc...etc.....
Before the iPhone, concerts were fleeting affairs. Any mistake or tech issues came and went in the blink if an eye.A Dire Straits bootleg is like a novel that hasn't quite been finished, with grammatical errors and spelling mistakes, or a rough cut of a movie that is 2.5 hours long instead of 1.5 hours. That goes for every artist.
Of course, completist fans love to hear the 'work in progress', but it's no surprise that music artists (and novelists and film makers) don't want anyone to see or hear their creative product until it is FINISHED.

[peterromer]

As far as I'm aware it is always illegal.
My brother worked in a record store for years and they would never stock an unofficial release. Obviously some did.....in order to make money and probably presuming record labels and bands wouldn't patrol every record store on earth in order to catch out the rare instances of a bootleg being sold.
I do know artists would go to Notting Hill markets in London and confiscate cassette bootlegs in the 70's and 80's.

A recording is a permanent record. So as an artist you don't want to release recordings from a gig where your guitar was out of tune for a couple of songs, or you had a nightmare show because the monitoring was bad....etc...etc.....
Before the iPhone, concerts were fleeting affairs. Any mistake or tech issues came and went in the blink if an eye.A Dire Straits bootleg is like a novel that hasn't quite been finished, with grammatical errors and spelling mistakes, or a rough cut of a movie that is 2.5 hours long instead of 1.5 hours. That goes for every artist.
Of course, completist fans love to hear the 'work in progress', but it's no surprise that music artists (and novelists and film makers) don't want anyone to see or hear their creative product until it is FINISHED.

Thanks Chris!. Also from my perspective as a fan, the bootlegs are almost like gems, they offer different versions of the songs (even new unknown songs if we were lucky), different solos, different performances that overall would never see the light of day, because as you say the finished product would probably be error free or "perfect" in a general sense. Your point is spot on with the one that I posted, the Zurich 92´ bootleg, because it was low quality and DS/MK and the management behind them would NEVER had released such a product. The shop I bought it in (FONA), was the largest supply chain in the country for CD/LP´s at the time, so impressive that they got it sneaked in.       
   

[Jules]

As far as I'm aware it is always illegal.
My brother worked in a record store for years and they would never stock an unofficial release. Obviously some did.....in order to make money and probably presuming record labels and bands wouldn't patrol every record store on earth in order to catch out the rare instances of a bootleg being sold.
I do know artists would go to Notting Hill markets in London and confiscate cassette bootlegs in the 70's and 80's.

A recording is a permanent record. So as an artist you don't want to release recordings from a gig where your guitar was out of tune for a couple of songs, or you had a nightmare show because the monitoring was bad....etc...etc.....
Before the iPhone, concerts were fleeting affairs. Any mistake or tech issues came and went in the blink if an eye.A Dire Straits bootleg is like a novel that hasn't quite been finished, with grammatical errors and spelling mistakes, or a rough cut of a movie that is 2.5 hours long instead of 1.5 hours. That goes for every artist.
Of course, completist fans love to hear the 'work in progress', but it's no surprise that music artists (and novelists and film makers) don't want anyone to see or hear their creative product until it is FINISHED.

I always considered that, obviously they are illegal, but they are like a biography of a band, and usually is the only way for fans to know how concerts of a band were during all his career, how songs evolved, came and went out, etc etc etc. Let's say it's an unauthorised biography but a very loyal to reality one.

And also, in the end, doesn't harm anyone as, like MK always say, people who buy bootlegs already have the official stuff.

[dustyvalentino]

As far as I'm aware it is always illegal.
My brother worked in a record store for years and they would never stock an unofficial release. Obviously some did.....in order to make money and probably presuming record labels and bands wouldn't patrol every record store on earth in order to catch out the rare instances of a bootleg being sold.
I do know artists would go to Notting Hill markets in London and confiscate cassette bootlegs in the 70's and 80's.

A recording is a permanent record. So as an artist you don't want to release recordings from a gig where your guitar was out of tune for a couple of songs, or you had a nightmare show because the monitoring was bad....etc...etc.....
Before the iPhone, concerts were fleeting affairs. Any mistake or tech issues came and went in the blink if an eye.A Dire Straits bootleg is like a novel that hasn't quite been finished, with grammatical errors and spelling mistakes, or a rough cut of a movie that is 2.5 hours long instead of 1.5 hours. That goes for every artist.
Of course, completist fans love to hear the 'work in progress', but it's no surprise that music artists (and novelists and film makers) don't want anyone to see or hear their creative product until it is FINISHED.

And yet, the Basel 1992 bootleg which is a direct capture of a live radio broadcast is a more satisfying listen than the On The Night album that poor Guy spent months tweaking... BY FAR!

[Jules]

As far as I'm aware it is always illegal.
My brother worked in a record store for years and they would never stock an unofficial release. Obviously some did.....in order to make money and probably presuming record labels and bands wouldn't patrol every record store on earth in order to catch out the rare instances of a bootleg being sold.
I do know artists would go to Notting Hill markets in London and confiscate cassette bootlegs in the 70's and 80's.

A recording is a permanent record. So as an artist you don't want to release recordings from a gig where your guitar was out of tune for a couple of songs, or you had a nightmare show because the monitoring was bad....etc...etc.....
Before the iPhone, concerts were fleeting affairs. Any mistake or tech issues came and went in the blink if an eye.A Dire Straits bootleg is like a novel that hasn't quite been finished, with grammatical errors and spelling mistakes, or a rough cut of a movie that is 2.5 hours long instead of 1.5 hours. That goes for every artist.
Of course, completist fans love to hear the 'work in progress', but it's no surprise that music artists (and novelists and film makers) don't want anyone to see or hear their creative product until it is FINISHED.

And yet, the Basel 1992 bootleg which is a direct capture of a live radio broadcast is a more satisfying listen than the On The Night album that poor Guy spent months tweaking... BY FAR!

Bootlegs are more loyal to what a live concert is, and both Basel and Nimes broadcasts are favourites against OTN which sounds over produced and unnatural.

But commercially releases need that standard as a product, while bootlegs are fresh and loyal to the real thing.