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Author Topic: Anachronism in the Luxembourg Bootleg 1983 and other discoveries  (Read 1277 times)

OfflineBrunno Nunes

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Anachronism in the Luxembourg Bootleg 1983 and other discoveries
« on: November 19, 2024, 04:38:04 AM »
Attention, I will say in advance that this publication is intended only for Bootleg collectors. If you find it boring, do not continue, do not waste your time, I recognize that it may be boring for those who are not used to what I will TRY to explain in a language that is not mine.

On April 08, 2017 I published a topic here on the forum with the title: "Deciphering an enigma- Bootleg "Paris 22/06/1983", where I brought a discovery I had made about this bootleg and started a debate that must have been especially interesting for bootleg collectors,

https://www.amarkintime.org/forum/index.php?topic=5824.0

Today, I will do the same, this time, about the bootleg 1983.05.30 - Luxembourg 1983 (Centre Sportif, Differdange), later, some light on an obscure bootleg with the title: 1983.xx.xx - Once upon a time in 1983 (Unknown date and place).

There is an anachronism in the Bootleg Luxembourg 1983.

The recording "Luxembourg 83" has a false place and date, it cannot be on the date 1983.05.30, because the recording contains all the characteristics of the bootlegs that precede the Frankfurt bootleg 21-05-83. The version of Portobello Belle on the recording "Luxembourg 83" has a pattern WITHOUT a bridge with Tunnel of Love, therefore, it is a recording that precedes the way the band was playing on 1983.05.30.

This will require a little attention and knowledge of some details and characteristics that are scattered in bootlegs of the LOG tour 83, but I should leave here a small script to guide and explain how I reached certain conclusions.

Taking into account THREE FACTS that I identified:

(ALWAYS PAY ATTENTION TO THE DATES and the format of the songs, this is fundamental to understand)
.
1- The versions of Portobello Belle during the LOG tour 82-83 have the following variations and characteristics: 0.1-Live in 1982: When Mark sings the last phrase of the song, always starts with a guitar solo by Hal Lindes, followed by Hammond by Alan Clark, (absence of sax); 0.2-versions in Australia, New Zealand and Japan, after singing the last phrase of the song... a guitar solo by Hal Lindes, followed by a sax solo by Paul Williamson and Hammond by Alan Clark;0.3- between Kassel 1983.05.15 and 1983.05.31 - Brussels, guitar solo by Hal Lindes, followed by a Hammond solo by Alan Clark and a sax solo by Mel Collins; The bootleg 1983.06.13 -0.4 Den Bosch 1983 is the first recording to contain the definitive DEFINITIVE adjustment for Portobello Belle - HAMMOND solo + GUITAR + SAX, (better known format, due to the version on the MFN compilation RELEASED IN 1988) and follows this pattern until the end of the tour, at Alchemy.

2- The bootleg Frankfurt 21-05-83 is the last recording to contain a version of Portobello Belle WITHOUT a bridge with Tunnel of Love. Up until now, Tunnel of Love started with Terry Williams and then Alan on his piano, there is literally a pause between both songs up until this point in the tour, that is, between the first bootleg available from the beginning of the LOG tour, live in Sheffield 01.12.82, until Frankfurt 21-05-83, Portobello Belle has an ending without the famous bridge that we know from famous bootlegs like Paris 83, which makes a transition full of atmosphere, quite inspired with a sax solo extending at the end of PB to create a transition to TOL.

 

3- The Bootleg Zürich 1983.05.24 is the first recording to contain a bridge that transitions between Portobello Belle and Tunnel of Love and this continues until the end of the tour with Alchemy.



Now that I have shed light on these small details, but whoever analyzes them will see that they are decisive, I hope to have made it easier to understand the paths I took in my "die hard" research, to confirm what I discovered about the bootleg 1983.05.30 - Luxembourg 1983 (Centre Sportif, Differdange), which was named and dated incorrectly.

Based on the tour dates on the wonderful On Every Bootleg website
https://www.oneverybootleg.nl/tourdates_1982_1983.htm
My guess is that this recording is possibly one of these shows:

11.05.1983 Ernst Merck-Halle Hamburg Germany
12.05.1983 Broendbyhalle Copenhagen Denmark
14.05.1983 Deutschlandhalle Berlin Germany
16.05.1983 Sporthalle Cologne Germany
Maybe even 22.05.1983 Eisstadion Mannheim Germany

These concert dates above predate the Zürich 1983.05.24 bootleg, which is the first recording to CONTAIN a bridge that transitions between Portobello Belle and Tunnel of Love, they have not yet been catalogued as bootlegs, but are strong candidates for being the recording misnamed as 1983.05.30 - Luxembourg 1983 (Centre Sportif, Differdange). There is definitely no actual recording of the show on 1983.05.30 - Luxembourg 1983 (Centre Sportif, Differdange).

I also noticed about the recording named 1983.05.30 - Luxembourg 1983- false place and date:

There is a version that contains Tunnel of love (cut) at 11:56 min and another version with Tunnel of love (cut) at 12:04 min.

There is also a version of this recording that was wrongly named Frankfurt 21-05-83.

Anyway, you should realize that for it to be 1983.05.30 - Luxembourg 1983, it would have to have other characteristics.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2024, 03:18:36 PM by Brunno Nunes »
Let's go down to the waterline!

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OfflineBrunno Nunes

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Re: Anachronism in the Luxembourg Bootleg 1983 and other discoveries
« Reply #1 on: November 19, 2024, 04:44:51 AM »
I analyzed the bootleg 1983.xx.xx - Once upon a time in 1983 (Unknown date and place) and found that it has the characteristic of a bridge that makes a transition between Portobello Belle and Tunnel os Love, but it still does not contain the definitive DEFINITE adjustment for Portobello Belle - solo HAMMOND + GUITAR + SAX, that is, it maintains the same pattern between the bootlegs Zürich 1983.05.24 and 1983.05.31 - Brussels 1983 (Forest National, Brussels, Belgium), which are bootlegs that have a bridge that makes a transition between Portobello Belle and Tunnel os Love, but it still does not contain the definitive DEFINITE adjustment for Portobello Belle - solo HAMMOND + GUITAR + SAX. Therefore, I can conclude that this is a recording of one of these shows:

24.05.1983 Hallenstadion Zürich Switzerland
25.05.1983 Patinoire des Vernets Geneva Switzerland
26.05.1983 Patinoire des Vernets Geneva Switzerland
27.05.1983 Palais des Sports Grenoble France
28.05.1983 St. Jakob Sporthalle Basel Switzerland
30.05.1983 Centre Sportif Differdange
Let's go down to the waterline!

my blog : https://universodirestraits.blogspot.com

OfflineBrunno Nunes

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Re: Anachronism in the Luxembourg Bootleg 1983 and other discoveries
« Reply #2 on: November 19, 2024, 05:00:49 AM »
As you can see, there are many nuances and details that cover the universe of a Dire Straits tour, only in their songs I was able to point out some variables within the same tour, and I guarantee that I am summarizing, highlighting the most important points to show how I realized that there was something wrong, anachronistic with the recording Luxemburg 1983. Deals like these are spread throughout the tours in different ways and I have everything mapped out in my mind and typed files, where I put my analyzes and perspectives, for those who know One day, I can organize and give a broader destiny...   :think :wave
Let's go down to the waterline!

my blog : https://universodirestraits.blogspot.com

OfflineJF

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Re: Anachronism in the Luxembourg Bootleg 1983 and other discoveries
« Reply #3 on: November 19, 2024, 03:04:46 PM »
amzing job !  :clap :clap :clap

OfflineRobson

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Re: Anachronism in the Luxembourg Bootleg 1983 and other discoveries
« Reply #4 on: November 19, 2024, 03:20:43 PM »
Ok. I'm starting to analyze this thread  :)

Thanks Brunno:)
I know the way I can see by the moonlight
Clear as the day
Now come on woman, come follow me home

OfflinePottel

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Re: Anachronism in the Luxembourg Bootleg 1983 and other discoveries
« Reply #5 on: November 19, 2024, 04:08:34 PM »
question, could it simply be that Portobello belle was spliced in from another show from the time you mention in your analysis, but that the rest of the show is correct?
i find it a bizarre choice of locations to use as a "fake"
going to listen to the show and to the audience chatter now. Luxemburg slang is VERY particular.
any Knopfler, Floyd or Dylan will do....

OfflinePottel

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Re: Anachronism in the Luxembourg Bootleg 1983 and other discoveries
« Reply #6 on: November 19, 2024, 04:11:38 PM »
listening to it now..will report back.
any Knopfler, Floyd or Dylan will do....

OfflineBrunno Nunes

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Re: Anachronism in the Luxembourg Bootleg 1983 and other discoveries
« Reply #7 on: November 19, 2024, 04:25:29 PM »
question, could it simply be that Portobello belle was spliced in from another show from the time you mention in your analysis, but that the rest of the show is correct?
i find it a bizarre choice of locations to use as a "fake"
going to listen to the show and to the audience chatter now. Luxemburg slang is VERY particular.


No, because I analyzed the entire show and only highlighted Portobello Belle and Tunnel Of Love, as they contain more relevant and substantial aspects. I could mention aspects and characteristics of other songs in the show, but that would be quite long and tiring for most people. So, I am particularly confident in my analysis, to substantiate it, I delved deep into the musical processes of how the band changed arrangements, additional nuances...

For now, I only know that the recording named Luxemburgo 83 is fake, I cannot confirm any show or date with precision, but I can identify the period, the dates above not yet cataloged as bootlegs. The same thing with the bootleg 1983.xx.xx - Once upon a time in 1983, through my analysis, I realized which period of the tour this recording belongs to.

Now, if you or anyone else can look at the two recordings and try to identify some more clues that help identify the origin of the recording, you are always welcome, my limitation is the language, but my specialty is the aspects that I mentioned in the posts. :wave
Let's go down to the waterline!

my blog : https://universodirestraits.blogspot.com

OfflineBrunno Nunes

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Re: Anachronism in the Luxembourg Bootleg 1983 and other discoveries
« Reply #8 on: November 19, 2024, 04:30:01 PM »
I have analyzed all the shows I mentioned, in fact, I have listened to all these bootlegs many, many times, they are very familiar, I usually analyze the tours through the bootlegs, this is a fun for me that at the same time I have always taken seriously. 🙌🏻
Let's go down to the waterline!

my blog : https://universodirestraits.blogspot.com

OfflinePottel

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Re: Anachronism in the Luxembourg Bootleg 1983 and other discoveries
« Reply #9 on: November 19, 2024, 04:46:58 PM »
at the beginning of private inv. there is some audience chatter close to the taper. to me it sounds like a swiss (Zürich?) dialect. can a swiss person check?
any Knopfler, Floyd or Dylan will do....

OfflineBrunno Nunes

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Re: Anachronism in the Luxembourg Bootleg 1983 and other discoveries
« Reply #10 on: November 19, 2024, 05:12:43 PM »
at the beginning of private inv. there is some audience chatter close to the taper. to me it sounds like a swiss (Zürich?) dialect. can a swiss person check?


How wonderful, Pottel, thanks for checking,🙌🏻 this further substantiates my research, more substance, my instinct was right!
Let's go down to the waterline!

my blog : https://universodirestraits.blogspot.com

OfflinePottel

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Re: Anachronism in the Luxembourg Bootleg 1983 and other discoveries
« Reply #11 on: November 19, 2024, 05:32:33 PM »
obviously a luxemburgian should listen to that part as well as it seems to be the only spot on the bootleg with audible audience chatter
any Knopfler, Floyd or Dylan will do....

OfflineBrunno Nunes

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Re: Anachronism in the Luxembourg Bootleg 1983 and other discoveries
« Reply #12 on: November 19, 2024, 05:43:18 PM »
The recording with the name Luxemburgo 83 has all the characteristics of the songs that make up the following tour period: (based on analysis of the recordings)

11.05.1983 Ernst Merck-Halle Hamburg Germany
12.05.1983 Brondbyhalle Copenhagen Denmark
14.05.1983 Deutschlandhalle Berlin Germany
15.05.1983 Eissporthalle Kassel Germany
16.05.1983 Sporthalle Cologne Germany
18.05.1983 Stadthalle Vienna Austria
19.05.1983 Stadthalle Linz Austria
20.05.1983 Olympiahalle Munich Germany
21.05.1983 Festalle Frankfurt Germany

We have recordings of:

15.05.1983 Eissporthalle Kassel Germany
18.05.1983 Stadthalle Vienna Austria
19.05.1983 Stadthalle Linz Austria
20.05.1983 Olympiahalle Munich Germany
21.05.1983 Festalle Frankfurt Germany

So it's a recording from one of these dates:

11.05.1983 Ernst Merck-Halle Hamburg Germany
12.05.1983 Brondbyhalle Copenhagen Denmark
14.05.1983     Deutschlandhalle Berlin Germany
16.05.1983 Sporthalle Cologne Germany

Maybe even 22.05.1983 Eisstadion Mannheim Germany, but most likely it's a recording from 23.05.1983 Hallenstadion Zürich Switzerland, once we have the recording from the following night, 24.05.1983 Hallenstadion Zürich Switzerland and In it we can already see for the first time a bridge between PB and TOL. If you hear someone speaking in Swiss at the beginning of PI it is quite possible that Luxembourg 83 is actually 23.05.1983 Hallenstadion Zürich Switzerland, however, the speech of someone in the audience is not very reliable to define the place, since it could be a tourist and these countries are small and close, unlike a continental country like Brazil and the United States, where the people speak the same language.

It is becoming clearer.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2024, 06:22:54 PM by Brunno Nunes »
Let's go down to the waterline!

my blog : https://universodirestraits.blogspot.com

OfflineBrunno Nunes

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Re: Anachronism in the Luxembourg Bootleg 1983 and other discoveries
« Reply #13 on: November 19, 2024, 06:19:46 PM »
Just to point out, once again.

As for the bootleg 1983.xx.xx - Once upon a time in 1983 (Date and location unknown), it could be any of the dates below from uncatalogued bootlegs, including the real 30.05.1983 Centre Sportif Differdange Luxembourg. The recording has all the characteristics of this period of the tour, which corresponds to 24.05.1983 Hallenstadion Zürich Switserland to 12.06.1983 Ijsselhal Zwolle The Netherlands

So, it could be the following dates not yet catalogued:

25.05.1983 Patinoire des Vernets Geneva Switserland
26.05.1983 Patinoire des Vernets Geneva Switserland
27.05.1983 Palais des Sports Grenoble France
28.05.1983 St. Jakob Sporthalle Basel Switserland
30.05.1983 Centre Sportif Differdange Luxembourg
01.06.1983 Forest National Brussels Belgium
12.06.1983 Ijsselhal
Let's go down to the waterline!

my blog : https://universodirestraits.blogspot.com

OfflineRobson

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Re: Anachronism in the Luxembourg Bootleg 1983 and other discoveries
« Reply #14 on: November 19, 2024, 07:03:50 PM »
Brunno I was counting on your opinion in the Bootlegs thread I started a few weeks ago. But I was more concerned with good quality concerts recorded from a console. It would be fun to propose and arrange such a list with absolute bootleg classics that you must have.

But the topic didn't get much attention I don't know why :(

https://www.amarkintime.org/forum/index.php?topic=8979.0
I know the way I can see by the moonlight
Clear as the day
Now come on woman, come follow me home

 

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