Lindes sad departure (Ed's view?)

[peterromer]

Speaking of EC, wonder how he enjoyed being MK’s number two on a famous occasion. Seemed to like it alright.

MK has also been a sidekick to him on occasions. Probably just down to mutual respect.   

[Jules]

Speaking of EC, wonder how he enjoyed being MK’s number two on a famous occasion. Seemed to like it alright.

MK has also been a sidekick to him on occasions. Probably just down to mutual respect.

I still remember telling how great was to scape to waching scenes of violence (he was then working with Guy on "Last Exit to Brooklyn" score) to have fun playing with Clapton during his RAH residences. I guess that fun helped a lot to convince MK to go on tour with Eric.

[Chris W]

Hm. I can't see how Quizzaciously states anything other than you, in a nutshell. Just in his own words. Maybe there was a little misunderstanding on your side?

LE

Really, then you are equally misguided.
Professional musicians go into a sideman gig fully aware of the conditions. You are there to support the artist. It has ZERO to do with ego and needing to show people how you are as 'good' as Mark Knopfler.
Like I said - go and study any manual on team building and a happy workforce. There are thousands out there. In business we know there are chairmen and managers, also plain old employees. But the BET way to get the BEST out if your employees is to make them feel part of the team, let them know they are valued. If you don't, they'll go and find a different job where they DO feel valued.
I don't think most second guitarists in Dire Straits ever felt valued enough. Especially if (like the drummers) you aren't included in the recordings.

[Chris W]

Speaking of EC, wonder how he enjoyed being MK’s number two on a famous occasion. Seemed to like it alright.

MK has also been a sidekick to him on occasions. Probably just down to mutual respect.

More like a guest star. Has any artist in their own right committed to Dire Straits for a year long world tour?
Every single one has been a career support player, even Paul Franklin.
Bruce Springsteen has kept the same 'support players' for decades. probably because they all feel a valued member of his team.

[hunter v2.0]

Then again there's Richard Bennett who's stuck with Mark for Mark's entire solo career, including studio work and touring. I think we can and should differentiate between DS Mark and solo Mark.

[Robson]

Let's not forget there's Glenn Worf and Guy Fletcher. Paul Franklin and Danny Cummings are always around.

[Chris W]

In my experience, Mark treated Chris White and Paul Franklin very well.
Both Paul and Chris created a lot of their own parts in the songs and were encouraged to do so. It was clear to me that Mark highly valued their input.
It has to be said (on the flipside) that some people hang around because it's a good gig, it pays well, the conditions (venues, travel and hotels) are very good and it suits their needs for exposure and sponsors.
In the end I'm not making a blanket judgement on Mark, my original input was about the revolving door of second guitarists. I think it's true to say it's a very tough gig, living up to Mark's standards and often not being appreciated for what you DO bring to the gig.
The whole tangent about 'being too big for your boots', so you should start your own band and see how well you do..... is just a nonsense.
The point remains.... If you obviously value a side musicians input to the music, and you encourage an atmosphere that we are 'all in this together', when we do well it's to all our credit, if we do badly we should ALL look at ourselves, that encourages people to stick around.

[Chris W]

Sometimes people just weren't called back, like Terry Williams for the 'On Every Street' tour.
I'm told that Mark is of a lighter, less intense mentality since the early 90's. I have no doubt, if you fitted in, that recording and touring with Mark in the solo years might have been musically rewarding and a fun experience.

[peterromer]

Sometimes people just weren't called back, like Terry Williams for the 'On Every Street' tour.
I'm told that Mark is of a lighter, less intense mentality since the early 90's. I have no doubt, if you fitted in, that recording and touring with Mark in the solo years might have been musically rewarding and a fun experience.

The above totally explains why some "Solo MK" musicians are coming back regardless of studio recording or tours.
Makes good sense. Thanks Chris.   

[Love Expresso]

Hm. I can't see how Quizzaciously states anything other than you, in a nutshell. Just in his own words. Maybe there was a little misunderstanding on your side?

LE

Really, then you are equally misguided.
Professional musicians go into a sideman gig fully aware of the conditions. You are there to support the artist. It has ZERO to do with ego and needing to show people how you are as 'good' as Mark Knopfler.
Like I said - go and study any manual on team building and a happy workforce. There are thousands out there. In business we know there are chairmen and managers, also plain old employees. But the BET way to get the BEST out if your employees is to make them feel part of the team, let them know they are valued. If you don't, they'll go and find a different job where they DO feel valued.
I don't think most second guitarists in Dire Straits ever felt valued enough. Especially if (like the drummers) you aren't included in the recordings.

I rest my case then. Thanks.

LE

[dustyvalentino]

Hi everyone, Dusty here just to let you know that our good friend the one and only ED BICKNELL has provided some responses to this thread which I will post after this one... many thanks again Ed!

[dustyvalentino]

AMITS
I guess if you dangle a carrot in front of a donkey long enough, eventually it will move forward so after watching this thread …” Hal Lindes sad departure ( Ed’s view) “  for some weeks let me try and shed some light and add a few personal comments to that particular topic.

Now I know this is a fan site, and I know it’s very existence depends on an exchange of views, but the obsession by some on topics like why certain sidemen came and went when the commentators have NO idea as to what actually took place is at best amusing and at worst just plain sad.

So let me give you “my view” starting with Mario Boss then by response number.
It’s nice to be liked, thank you.
Not the first time I’ve been compared to a cockroach!
I don't know how to answer differently ( and most is from memory), but you lost me with the 8 dimensional views….who or what comprise the 8 views?

Good evening folks,
Was this ever answered properly? Don't think so.

I do like Ed - what a legend, but bless him he's not some indistructable Cockroach. He will only answer questions on his terms and according to his memory which is absolutely fine and full credit to him for giving one side of what could only be described as 8 (dimentional) views...however back to my point what was his answer regarding Lindes?

I think he said it was partially answered in John's book?

For those who don't know because they haven’t read it , in his book John Illsley made reference to an issue concerning Hal’s girlfriend of the time only wanting to invite Mark and John to “ dinners ” or “social evenings” she was throwing in Montserrat and not the other band or crew members which made M and J understandably feel very uncomfortable ( they refused to go as I would have).
I wasn’t present for the specific instances John refers to but I completely get what he was talking about since she had been quite rude and patronising to both John and myself previously…not worth detailing here.
Unfortunately the lady concerned didn't seem to recognise the reality of Hal being a sideman or whatever you want to call it, and that he wasn’t any more or less important than anyone else and that she wasn’t married to her previous husband Peter Frampton ( great guy) any longer (and who had obviously been a very successful bandleader ).
There were numerous other instances where her attitude became a pain in the arse, not least because it didn't occur with any other band wife or girlfriend ( who were also excluded from those dinners if they were there).
I had been on the island just before this came to a head and clearly recall Hal coming to see me and announcing that Twiggy and her daughter were coming out and that I should organise a cottage for them and various other items.
I told him in no uncertain terms that I was not his slave and that HE should organise whatever was necessary and that HE would be paying for it ( he had implied the band ie M and J should pay for his guest’s accommodation which was never going to happen.)
This did not go down well, as in he was really pissed off.
During that conversation he also told me that he was “not happy with his role in the group” to which I responded “ and how can we make you happy, Hal?’
Apparently he wanted to play MORE LEAD GUITAR which had me wondering if I was hearing things.
“ Well I don't do musical policy and maybe you should go and ask the current lead guitarist if he’d like to play rhythm on a few more songs and then you could play lead. How about that?”
He scuttled off and I didn't think any more about it, I needed to get to New York to start preparatory work on the US tour and didn't have the time or inclination to deal with his immature nonsense which is what it was.
After I’d left Twiggy and her daughter duly arrived and according to John’s book the social situation where Mark and John were invited over and no other musicians or crew were included, got worse.
I’d been in New York for about a week when John called.
“ We’re firing Hal” he said .
“ Really?  He didn’t go to Mark and say he wanted to play more lead did he?”
“ How the fuck do you know about that, have you got the studio bugged?” ( much laughter).
I told him what I’ve laid out above and John confirmed that Hal had indeed spoken to Mark and that on top of the social issues the two of them had decided to let him go and that Mark had someone else in mind ( Jack ), and they were making arrangements to fly him down.

[dustyvalentino]

And why sad? People come and go.

LE

Well yeah, that's what you think but often with reason... sometimes justified sometimes not.

In a Terry Williams audio interview a few years ago he was asked about that Brothers In Arms era and was about to tell a story regarding Hal (and the guitarists featured on the BIA album)... I remember Terry suddenly changing tone, and saying "because there is another guitarist on this... Hal Lindes, poor old Hal....not sure if I should say this" and then Williams' answer was suddenly edited/cut. Obviously for a reason. The fact that Ed hasn't replied to my original question directly must mean he either cannot remember or it's quite personal, so weirdly, and I know it looks like i've been prying, although for good reason like the majority of posters on here, i'll leave it. Some things sometimes are better off left alone.

So in regards to the posters on this forum, don't be so naive. That's my advice.

I’ll just add that I have no explanation as to why the audio on Terry’s interview was cut ( certainly not by us) nor what he said in the erased bit ( and Terry can't remember). I’m guessing it was a reference to the above.

Hal always said that he wanted to pursue a career writing music for movies, after his experience working in the Local Hero soundtrack, but according the credits only plays in "Freeway Flyer". Actually it's what he did after leaving DS.

Also John made some references during his concerts of the "Dire Straits History" or whatever that tour was called, to Hal leaving and apparently, besides what John says in his book, there were musical differences too that made everything difficult, a friend of mine from the UK that attended his local gig told me that John said something like that, very briefly,  without giving more details. Actually I was surprised that John didn't said that in his book as it seems a more logic and "light" reason for Hal to leave, and instead told the story about the girlfriend and the dinners just inviting MK and John... but as LE says, people in bands come and go by different reasons.

About the "sad" calificative, I guess it's because of the great dynamics that the band had with him during the Alchemy era, but in my opinion that was even better with Jack in the band, so in that terms, Hal leaving was more happy than sad.

Well he never mentioned that to me, ever.
His "experience “ was playing rhythm on ONE track, really on a session basis and as often happened with M it was convenient, he wasn’t trying to get Hal into another career ( which as you rightly point out is what he went on to do, pretty successfully, good for him .)
The “musical differences” presumably refer to the issue of playing lead ( I still can't quite get my head round that).

Ironically M and I exchanged texts not that long ago…I can't recall why but ironically it was about another negative episode with the gf ….but M did say “ Hal is a sweet guy” and that’s true.
He is and he made a great contribution to the band until he didn't.
I had no beef with him personally and wouldn’t if I saw him now.
I agree completely re your comment on Jack.
Was I “sad” he left?
I didn't have time to be sad.

Bear in mind that being the second guitar to Mark Knopfler has got to be the hardest gig in music.
It's like being the second pianist to Oscar Petersen or second drummer to Buddy Rich.

Chris is 100% correct.

Bear in mind that being the second guitar to Mark Knopfler has got to be the hardest gig in music.
It's like being the second pianist to Oscar Petersen or second drummer to Buddy Rich.

valid point. just look at poor Phil.
still, he was (regularly if i am not mistaken) seen at MK solo shows at the RAH no?

Phil went to see MK at the RAH? Regularly? REALLY? I think you are mistaken ( but I don’t know).

Bear in mind that being the second guitar to Mark Knopfler has got to be the hardest gig in music.
It's like being the second pianist to Oscar Petersen or second drummer to Buddy Rich.

valid point. just look at poor Phil.
still, he was (regularly if i am not mistaken) seen at MK solo shows at the RAH no?

Hal Lindes has been at least in the last MK tours at the RAH, I talked with him during the last one about the song "My Bacon Roll" (actually Hal asked me about MY opinion about the song) and also he was with MK at the lauch party of John's book.

I remember also pictures of Guy and Hal together.

I’m absolutely sure there are no bad feelings between any of the folks you mention This was all years ago and if there is a sad element it's that Hal didn't get to share in the BIA success ( but on the other hand he didn't suffer OES which kind of balances that out! ).

[dustyvalentino]

Bear in mind that being the second guitar to Mark Knopfler has got to be the hardest gig in music.
It's like being the second pianist to Oscar Petersen or second drummer to Buddy Rich.

But why exactly? Because of Mark's high expectations (are they so much higher than other A-list artists?)? Or do you refer to Mark's personality? Buddy Rich for instance could be downright nasty to his band. This may have applied to Mark in the past, but I don't think Richard Bennett for instance would have stuck with Mark for nearly 30 years if that were the case after disbanding DS. Or is there something musically that makes it particularly challenging?

Don’t be naive.
I dealt with the Nashville bunch in the Q and A. The answer re Richard, Glenn, Jim, Chad etc is in there.

Chris will speak for himself, but I would imagine it would be difficult for a top, pro level guitar player to sit doing basic chords while MK is showing off with the widdly bits

Got it. Yes there’s been alot of widdling over the years, especially down the porcelain bowl.

Chris will speak for himself, but I would imagine it would be difficult for a top, pro level guitar player to sit doing basic chords while MK is showing off with the widdly bits

It would be difficult for anybody suffering from egomania If everybody wanted to play the first fiddle, we wouldn't have an orchestra. I always thought all the controversy surrounding Mark's musicians was simply the battle of egos or, in rare cases, other personal reasons.

Thousands of musicians could only dream about playing with the likes of Oscar Peterson, Buddy Rich, or M Knopfler. And if you think playing the second fiddle offends you, go ahead and show people how it's done.

Reply 15.
See later.

I wonder why there are always people with a cloth polishing MK's ego without the slightest need? Everyone is self-centered, except MK, everyone has flaws, except MK, someone may have a personal problem with MK, except MK... it's so predictable, sorry for being blunt, but things can be different, especially when things point in another direction and I know someone might say... But we never hear what MK has to say about each case (in fact, he has spoken in the past about DK and PW's departure, but it was all very superficial). In the end, silence can be very convenient and I'm not here to criticize MK's stance on this controversial subject, but from a researcher's point of view it is inevitable to fail to analyze the facts, how the story was constructed. By the way, I have an interview from 1985 where it is categorically mentioned that Hal was fired from the band by Mark, it is in Portuguese, (Portugal magazine), I will transcribe it into English:


"Mark, what's left of the original line-up? Who are the members of the 85 version of DIRE STRAITST? JI-Besides TERRY WILLIAMS and ALAN CLARK, who were already part of the band on the last tour, there are three new members: CHRIS WRIGHT on saxophone, JACK SONNI, replacing guitarist HAL LINDES, who left us, and finally GUY FLETCHER, who you may know as he was part of ROXY MUSIC. I think we now represent a much more solid team and the work demonstrated on this album may well be the best proof of that. M&S-What were the reasons that led HAL LINDES to leave the group? J.I.-HAL LINDES is part of the group that is currently accompanying Tina Turner on her world tour, but it was Mark who made the decision to fire him. I think he must have other projects, since his interest has always been in forming his own group. M&S-Do you think that these personnel changes could jeopardize, precisely through the introduction of new instruments, the success that was once (and continues to be) attributed to the DIRE STRAITS sound? J.I-No, on the contrary. There is necessarily a new exchange of ideas and that contributes to a certain progress. But the most important thing is the extraordinary atmosphere of camaraderie that exists within the group, which is understood to be fundamental when we spend more than a year on tour!"


I love this type of period material, it helps us understand how history and its narratives were constructed, sometimes we find coherence and contradictions.

That interview you quote is odd.
It seems to be with M and J but only J answers?
John’s answer re Hal is completely wrong re dates.
Hal and Alan played with Tina in May 1984 NOT 1985 and Hal never mentioned forming his own group when I was around.
Tina fired him by the way….she actually called me personally to ask if I minded ( bless) as did her manager Roger Davies.
Since I wasn’t representing him I said “no” I didn't mind ( especially when Roger told me why). I’ve no reason to think Hal didn't see his future with DS until he was let go.
John’s comment re camaraderie is 100% bang on.

Chris will speak for himself, but I would imagine it would be difficult for a top, pro level guitar player to sit doing basic chords while MK is showing off with the widdly bits

It really depends on the mindset and maturity of the second guitar player. A young hothead who just can't wait to play a long, fancy solo just isn't the right person. A more mature person knows he/she isn't the one with the name on the marquee and understands he/she is there to support the star. I can imagine both Hal and Jack might have found this difficult. People like Phil and Richard not so much. Just a different level of professionalism.

But the point is that this situation isn't unique for Mark and his rhythm guitarists. I mean, it applies equally well to Eric C., David Gilmour, and many more.

Correct and perceptive.
Both Hal and Jack suffered a bit from the lack of maturity you refer to, both musically and the way they behaved personally ….snapping fingers at waiters kind of thing, yelling at hotel receptionists.
They were cured of that!

[dustyvalentino]

Chris will speak for himself, but I would imagine it would be difficult for a top, pro level guitar player to sit doing basic chords while MK is showing off with the widdly bits

It really depends on the mindset and maturity of the second guitar player. A young hothead who just can't wait to play a long, fancy solo just isn't the right person. A more mature person knows he/she isn't the one with the name on the marquee and understands he/she is there to support the star. I can imagine both Hal and Jack might have found this difficult. People like Phil and Richard not so much. Just a different level of professionalism.

But the point is that this situation isn't unique for Mark and his rhythm guitarists. I mean, it applies equally well to Eric C., David Gilmour, and many more.

Difficult? For Hal and Jack? These guys are and were accomplished players. Both were excellent guitarists in their own right. A fact, especially in Hal's case where he went onto write scores for various films and tv programs. Jack, well i'm deeply saddened at the lack of attention he has had since his death.

I absolutely love Mr Knopfler when it comes to his guitar tones, playing, songwriting and vocals pre 1991, Love Over Gold and Making Movies are top top albums, but many of you are obviously semi delusional. He was a difficult person to get on with in the Dire Straits days. If it wasn't for those days i'm not sure if we'd be here talking about his solo career.

With regards to my original point about the Terry Williams' interview a few years back, clearly there was an issue with Hal leaving the band and Mark Knopfler. Whilst I brought up the point due to it being ignored amongst various Q and A's in previous years I shall now leave it as Jon in his book nor Ed have commented substantially about it. My hunch was correct but sometimes things are better off left unsaid.

"Down the telegraph road..."

Agree with your first paragraph completely, especially re dear Jack.
Re your second para I agree and gave my views in the Q and A….no DS, no solo career.
Now you have my “substantial” comments and the facts.

Thousands of musicians could only dream about playing with the likes of Oscar Peterson, Buddy Rich, or M Knopfler. And if you think playing the second fiddle offends you, go ahead and show people how it's done.

As usual (sadly) your take on the subject is wildly wrong.
I have spent an entire 40 year career as a support player to bigger name artists.
Working with Paul McCartney immediately before Mark, Paul would be upbeat after every show, complimenting us all on a job well done. In rehearsals for the tour Paul announced he wanted everyone to have a moment in the show. I worked up an intro to 'Coming Up'.
If you study any corporate handbook, about running a business successfully, it's about building a team so everyone feels valued. then rewarding the team for the things they are doing right. No one wants to work for someone when you don't feel valued and when everyday starts with a scowl.
Your last sentence in the quote above is so crazy bad.
It's a creative life, it isn't about who has the biggest balls. The support players absolutely understand 100% what their role is. For example, after a two hour show with McCartney or Straits, I never felt like the standing ovation had anything to do with my role, I felt it was all about Paul and Paul's songs, or Mark and Mark's songs.No problem whatsoever, I was just thrilled to be up there....part of the team.
If you are made to feel disposable, not valued, not part of a team, then you'll probably drift away and work with someone who does value what you bring to the job.

Aaaah. Young Chris..
I agree 110% with everything he says.
Completely correct.
Knowing Paul Mc slightly I can absolutely see how what Chris says would be the case and as I laid out in the Q and A ( and he has) OES falls into the “don't feel valued…scowl” category. Beautifully expressed!
To be part of the team is everything ( as I felt in the NHB’s).

At least Phil got a few solos, like MFN and TYL, and on some nights even ITILYTM. I imagine it must have been a fun gig being the second guitarist on the OES tour.

Oh the fun positively ran down Phil’s leg I’m sure.
ARE YOU SERIOUS?
You need to read what those involved ( including me) have to say about that episode.

At least Phil got a few solos, like MFN and TYL, and on some nights even ITILYTM. I imagine it must have been a fun gig being the second guitarist on the OES tour.

Both Hal and Jack had solos playing with DS. Even Richard had some moments, even Robbie had some solos when the 2002 gigs.

I think David was the only one who didn't had any solo with the band, LOL

Yawn.