Rough and Rowdy Ways

[dmg]

I don't think it's easier to come up with a song like Sultans of Swing than it is to come up with She Loves You.

yes because you chose these particular examples.

but if you choose Walk of life and a A day in the life....
or who's your baby now and Penny Lane...
etc....

And I think that there are more "complex" examples of songs in Beatles 'catalog than in Mark's one... 

I personally think his songwriting took a big dip after the first four albums.  From BIA on truly great songs are not in any great supply.

Let's not forget The Beatles had George Martin and will be listened to for more than just their music.  They have had so much spoken about them and a controversial  member killed which gave them cult-like status.  DS didn't even trash hotel bedrooms!

[dustyvalentino]

The whole debate is more subjective than anything else.
In the end, there is room in culture for multiple 'masters' of popular music.
The acid test is the 'test of time'.
How many of Mark's records will be listened to in 50 years time? In the case of The Beatles, we know it's A LOT.

Absolutely, it’s all subjective but at the end of the day all any of us can do is express our opinion so it’s fun to discuss.

Sultans of Swing is coming up for 50 years and it still gets played a LOT.

The test of time is the ultimate gauge of everything, yes. I'm very positive about my predictions on that as Mark has something I call the "Wait a minute!" factor. It happens when you watch a film, read a book, look at a painting, play a game, whatever it is, and go "Wait a minute!". As in it's so amazing you can't understand how it was made and stop to appreciate the beauty. Not every musician, poet, painter or filmmaker has this quality, but Mark certainly has it in spades. That's the definition of talent to me.

Sultans of Swing regularly (for this kind of song) appear in movies, covers, viral videos, guitar hero games, etc, but that's probably the only Mark's song to receive such acclaim. Mark sometimes genuinely seems like a one-hit wonder as Sultans trumps anything he ever produced or will produce. If I were him, I'd hate this song. You work all your life to never achieve anything bigger than your very first single, it sucks. And Money For Nothing is technically not Mark's song but is "co-written" by Gordon Sumner which is ridiculous.

I liked how it was stated in this thread Bob Dylan is mostly famous for his groundbreaking first efforts too. That's so true. Take this away, and poor Bob would be less famous than even Knopfler.

And Knopfler is mostly famous for Sultans and Money for Nothing. Take these away and poor Mark would be less famous than even John Oates.

As the saying goes, if my aunty had balls, she’d be my uncle.

[stratmad]

The test of time is the ultimate gauge of everything, yes. I'm very positive about my predictions on that as Mark has something I call the "Wait a minute!" factor. It happens when you watch a film, read a book, look at a painting, play a game, whatever it is, and go "Wait a minute!". As in it's so amazing you can't understand how it was made and stop to appreciate the beauty. Not every musician, poet, painter or filmmaker has this quality, but Mark certainly has it in spades. That's the definition of talent to me.

Sultans of Swing regularly (for this kind of song) appear in movies, covers, viral videos, guitar hero games, etc, but that's probably the only Mark's song to receive such acclaim. Mark sometimes genuinely seems like a one-hit wonder as Sultans trumps anything he ever produced or will produce. If I were him, I'd hate this song. You work all your life to never achieve anything bigger than your very first single, it sucks. And Money For Nothing is technically not Mark's song but is "co-written" by Gordon Sumner which is ridiculous.

I liked how it was stated in this thread Bob Dylan is mostly famous for his groundbreaking first efforts too. That's so true. Take this away, and poor Bob would be less famous than even Knopfler.

I agree that it's probably these 2 songs, and maybe BIA.
One thing that strikes me, though, is how often MK/DS instrumental parts are used in all sorts of tv documentaries, whether it's something about a steam train in India or some village in the Alps.

[Chris W]

Mark sometimes genuinely seems like a one-hit wonder as Sultans trumps anything he ever produced or will produce.

'Private Dancer' is one of his biggest hits.

'Twisting By The Pool' was a huge hit, which Mark has apparently disowned

[Chris W]

Let's not forget The Beatles had George Martin and will be listened to for more than just their music.  They have had so much spoken about them and a controversial  member killed which gave them cult-like status. 

I always say The Beatles wrote the book we're all still reading. They were an absolutely remarkable band that transcend just about every body since, including Dire Straits. Two genius song writers in a singe band, and Harrison was no slouch, good enough for most bands.
John and especially Paul came up with a lot of the innovative ideas, George Martin just helped them realise them. In the 60's Paul was hanging out with the movers and shakers in the art scene, so he came up with adding orchestral instruments and using tape loops etc.
The first to embrace commercial merchandising, the first to play large outdoor stadiums.

[Love Expresso]

Chris, talking about the Beatles and you being a drummer, please tell us your thoughts about Ringo as a drummer.
 Thank you!

LE

[JF]

Let's not forget The Beatles had George Martin and will be listened to for more than just their music.  They have had so much spoken about them and a controversial  member killed which gave them cult-like status. 

I always say The Beatles wrote the book we're all still reading. They were an absolutely remarkable band that transcend just about every body since, including Dire Straits. Two genius song writers in a singe band, and Harrison was no slouch, good enough for most bands.
John and especially Paul came up with a lot of the innovative ideas, George Martin just helped them realise them. In the 60's Paul was hanging out with the movers and shakers in the art scene, so he came up with adding orchestral instruments and using tape loops etc.
The first to embrace commercial merchandising, the first to play large outdoor stadiums.

exactly 

[qjamesfloyd]

Sultans of Swing is interesting as it raises the question: What Dire Straits have made it (so quickly) without that song? who knows, it certainly got them noticed and opened many doors, has it been a noose around Mark's neck for his whole career? who knows, does he even still like the song? It makes me think about when Mike Oldfield released Tubular Bells, it catapulted him from an almost obscure session man to huge fame almost overnight, and being so introverted he hated it, he was getting calls from everyone in the music industry for interviews, live appearances etc and it deeply, and negatively affected him. So, take that album away what did he have? he still had the talent, like Mark without Sultans, but, his appeal would have been less with his 2nd album. I think talent mostly wins in the end, and certainly back in the day it was what appealed to record companies more that the artist, to day it is completely the other way around with the amount of self promotion that is available to anyone.

[quizzaciously]

Sultans of Swing is interesting as it raises the question: What Dire Straits have made it (so quickly) without that song? who knows, it certainly got them noticed and opened many doors, has it been a noose around Mark's neck for his whole career? who knows, does he even still like the song? It makes me think about when Mike Oldfield released Tubular Bells, it catapulted him from an almost obscure session man to huge fame almost overnight, and being so introverted he hated it, he was getting calls from everyone in the music industry for interviews, live appearances etc and it deeply, and negatively affected him. So, take that album away what did he have? he still had the talent, like Mark without Sultans, but, his appeal would have been less with his 2nd album. I think talent mostly wins in the end, and certainly back in the day it was what appealed to record companies more that the artist, to day it is completely the other way around with the amount of self promotion that is available to anyone.

This last sentence sums it up pretty well. I still remember the story when a (crazy?) (french?) fan approached Mark trying to show him the video of his cover of Sultans (so yes, apparently he was crazy) and was personally and rudely sent off by Mark IN FRENCH. And in the viral video where some kid is playing "twiddly bits" to Brian Johnson and Mark you can feel the latter's cringe even through sunglasses

You don't need to be a genius or an oracle to know it sucks to have a hit of this magnitude that like an eclipse obscures your whole work, but you also don't need to be a genius to realise without this hit there'd be no crazy fans approaching you, no Brian Johnson and kids playing twiddly bits to you, let alone this hit paying the bills for you. So every coin always has two sides, and that side is not bad

[dustyvalentino]

I mean, he was still playing it for as long as he physically could so I guess he didn't hate it.

I took a friend to the 2013 tour, causal fan but loved Sultans. On that tour MK was alternating Sultans with Gator Blood.

He played gator Blood that night, my friend was gutted, lol.

[Rail King]

JF, I don't think it's about complexity vs. simplicity. I think it's terribly hard to write a song as simple and as memorable as Walk of Life. The prime example would be Blowin' in the Wind -- a very simple song, but arguably one of the greatest of all time. (I do agree, though, that Who's Your Baby Now is not quite as brilliant as Walk of Life. But neither is Wigwam by Bob Dylan.  )

Also, I'm not so sure about the "test of time". Something can be truly wonderful, but if it doesn't get any attention early on or if it's forgotten shortly after, for whatever reason, it will never have a chance of being rediscovered, simply because no one knows that it ever existed. I'm sure there are thousands of songs (and books, films, paintings ...) that I would ADORE if I knew them. The better-known something is, the higher its chances of being remembered. But being well-known is the result of many variables, quality being just one of them. It's important to remember that both Bob and Mark, as great as they are, must have had an immense amount of luck to end up where they are today. I'm sure they'd be the first to admit it.

[stratmad]

Sultans of Swing is interesting as it raises the question: What Dire Straits have made it (so quickly) without that song? who knows, it certainly got them noticed and opened many doors, has it been a noose around Mark's neck for his whole career? who knows, does he even still like the song? It makes me think about when Mike Oldfield released Tubular Bells, it catapulted him from an almost obscure session man to huge fame almost overnight, and being so introverted he hated it, he was getting calls from everyone in the music industry for interviews, live appearances etc and it deeply, and negatively affected him. So, take that album away what did he have? he still had the talent, like Mark without Sultans, but, his appeal would have been less with his 2nd album. I think talent mostly wins in the end, and certainly back in the day it was what appealed to record companies more that the artist, to day it is completely the other way around with the amount of self promotion that is available to anyone.

This last sentence sums it up pretty well. I still remember the story when a (crazy?) (french?) fan approached Mark trying to show him the video of his cover of Sultans (so yes, apparently he was crazy) and was personally and rudely sent off by Mark IN FRENCH. And in the viral video where some kid is playing "twiddly bits" to Brian Johnson and Mark you can feel the latter's cringe even through sunglasses

Great story about the French fan, never heard it before.
Is there a link for the BJ/MK twiddly bits video?

[quizzaciously]

I mean, he was still playing it for as long as he physically could so I guess he didn't hate it.

I took a friend to the 2013 tour, causal fan but loved Sultans. On that tour MK was alternating Sultans with Gator Blood.

He played gator Blood that night, my friend was gutted, lol.

Haha! I mean the term "twiddly bits" became infamous for Mark ruining people's lives by not playing a simple 16-note repeating line, I can imagine the disappointment of not hearing The Song at all. Love it or hate it, but if you have a bigger-than-life creation like this, you'd better perform it. Everybody expects it, so you either switch on your inner Bob Dylan (wink-wink) or oblige the fans. I'm pretty sure he kept it in the set to use it as a good gymnastic tool for fingers, it's one of his fastest songs after all.

[quizzaciously]

Sultans of Swing is interesting as it raises the question: What Dire Straits have made it (so quickly) without that song? who knows, it certainly got them noticed and opened many doors, has it been a noose around Mark's neck for his whole career? who knows, does he even still like the song? It makes me think about when Mike Oldfield released Tubular Bells, it catapulted him from an almost obscure session man to huge fame almost overnight, and being so introverted he hated it, he was getting calls from everyone in the music industry for interviews, live appearances etc and it deeply, and negatively affected him. So, take that album away what did he have? he still had the talent, like Mark without Sultans, but, his appeal would have been less with his 2nd album. I think talent mostly wins in the end, and certainly back in the day it was what appealed to record companies more that the artist, to day it is completely the other way around with the amount of self promotion that is available to anyone.

This last sentence sums it up pretty well. I still remember the story when a (crazy?) (french?) fan approached Mark trying to show him the video of his cover of Sultans (so yes, apparently he was crazy) and was personally and rudely sent off by Mark IN FRENCH. And in the viral video where some kid is playing "twiddly bits" to Brian Johnson and Mark you can feel the latter's cringe even through sunglasses

Great story about the French fan, never heard it before.
Is there a link for the BJ/MK twiddly bits video?

It's an ancient story and I'm sure I saw it here on AMIT years, if not decades ago. I have an excellent memory though

It was probably some guy trying to show Mark a video of a tribute band playing Sultans on one of the meet-and-greets or something. At any rate, trying to show Mark Knopfler a video he doesn't want to see is a 10/10 cringe experience and the worst idea you can think of in front of the man, so the reaction is well-deserved.

The YouTube Short with Johnson/Knopfler/Kid is this: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/5yw3GAGiYhU

This one has almost 2 million views, but it became viral all over the net, on Instagram, TikTok, and everywhere.

[JF]

Is there a link for the BJ/MK twiddly bits video?

can't find the video anymore but here is an article :

https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/young-guitarist-meets-mark-knopfler-14815230