Rough and Rowdy Ways

[quizzaciously]

worthy of analysis by smart people 

This would be the criteria that would interest me least. Besides, where are these smart people who are analysing his songs? Seems to me it's just us. 

I know a lot of fans who are not on this forum, and they are digging deep into Mark's lyrics, learning new words (being native English speakers themselves), finding easter eggs and references all the time, and can recite entire paragraphs from memory. Heck, I learned the lyrics of "Mr Solomons Said" just by ear because the word choice by Mark is so great and memorable. And that's a brand new song that just came out, after 50 years of continuous songwriting. Call me a fanboy, but boy, this Knopfler guy doesn't mess around.

[dustyvalentino]

Vintage gear....

By and large most vintage gear still being used is the cream of what was originally available. To be still used it has stood the test of time.
Vintage instruments have the most impact on the player, not the listener. I have a 1960's Camco drum set. It sounds bigger, warmer than any modern drum set. By the time it's been recorded, mixed, mastered into digital it doesn't sound much different to modern drums, BUT, it impacts the way I play on the original performance and it is quicker to get sounding great, rather than having to tinker with modern drum, add fx etc...

I often wondered why MK would cart his 1958 Les Paul (that he could probably sell for £1 million) around the world, and I guess this is the reason.

[quizzaciously]

Vintage gear....

By and large most vintage gear still being used is the cream of what was originally available. To be still used it has stood the test of time.
Vintage instruments have the most impact on the player, not the listener. I have a 1960's Camco drum set. It sounds bigger, warmer than any modern drum set. By the time it's been recorded, mixed, mastered into digital it doesn't sound much different to modern drums, BUT, it impacts the way I play on the original performance and it is quicker to get sounding great, rather than having to tinker with modern drum, add fx etc...

I often wondered why MK would cart his 1958 Les Paul (that he could probably sell for £1 million) around the world, and I guess this is the reason.

"Vintage instruments have the most impact on the player, not the listener", — that's very well said, Chris. All over YouTube one can find comparisons between vintage gear and new gear, and you need to pretend or be a some kind of a genius to tell the difference. I would also argue how well-played instrument is also crucial. You can have Vintage Old Stock guitar that's been sitting on the shelf for decades, or a well-played modern guitar and guess what I would prefer. A vintage guitar that's never been played is one of the saddest pictures you can see, almost insulting.

[quizzaciously]

"Vintage Old Stock" lol, I'm sorry for the poor choice of words, but I think you know what I mean. That's why everybody hates collectors if what they are collecting is something that's supposed to be used, whether it's cars or musical instruments it doesn't matter.

[Robson]

worthy of analysis by smart people 

This would be the criteria that would interest me least. Besides, where are these smart people who are analysing his songs? Seems to me it's just us. 

I know a lot of fans who are not on this forum, and they are digging deep into Mark's lyrics, learning new words (being native English speakers themselves), finding easter eggs and references all the time, and can recite entire paragraphs from memory. Heck, I learned the lyrics of "Mr Solomons Said" just by ear because the word choice by Mark is so great and memorable. And that's a brand new song that just came out, after 50 years of continuous songwriting. Call me a fanboy, but boy, this Knopfler guy doesn't mess around.

Mr Solomons Said - amazing. Is this your favorite song?

[quizzaciously]

worthy of analysis by smart people 

This would be the criteria that would interest me least. Besides, where are these smart people who are analysing his songs? Seems to me it's just us. 

I know a lot of fans who are not on this forum, and they are digging deep into Mark's lyrics, learning new words (being native English speakers themselves), finding easter eggs and references all the time, and can recite entire paragraphs from memory. Heck, I learned the lyrics of "Mr Solomons Said" just by ear because the word choice by Mark is so great and memorable. And that's a brand new song that just came out, after 50 years of continuous songwriting. Call me a fanboy, but boy, this Knopfler guy doesn't mess around.

Mr Solomons Said - amazing. Is this your favorite song?

Yes, it's my favourite from 24 newly released songs and it's a pity it's not on the main album as it's going to be underappreciated by default. It also happens to be the biggest, longest and most experimental new song too. With so many words and so many changes, it reminds me of the fact that's the same guy who wrote "Telegraph Road" and "Private Investigations".

I probably like the "Bonus Tracks" album more than the main album anyway. Crazy release strategy is not Mark's strong point that's for sure

[Robson]

The Boy EP should be released on CD.

"I probably like the "Bonus Tracks" album more than the main album anyway. Crazy release strategy is not Mark's strong point that's for sure"

Do you mean the 5 bonus songs from the CD set or the 4 bonus songs from the vinyl version?

[Rail King]

"...Love and Theft, with no famous producer on board. It's a mistery to me ...

Producer: Jack Frost. Dylan's pseudonym:)

I know, of course. But Dylan himself has no idea about how to make an album sound good. He must have genius engineers on board.

[dustyvalentino]

"...Love and Theft, with no famous producer on board. It's a mistery to me ...

Producer: Jack Frost. Dylan's pseudonym:)

I know, of course. But Dylan himself has no idea about how to make an album sound good. He must have genius engineers on board.

That seems like an odd assumption to make. He's been making very good sounding albums for a long time now.

[Rail King]

"...Love and Theft, with no famous producer on board. It's a mistery to me ...

Producer: Jack Frost. Dylan's pseudonym:)

I know, of course. But Dylan himself has no idea about how to make an album sound good. He must have genius engineers on board.

That seems like an odd assumption to make. He's been making very good sounding albums for a long time now.

I don't want to be unfair (and I admire Bob Dylan), but I think it's fair to say that he's made quite a number of sub-standard records in terms of sound. My assumption is that he just can't be bothered with the technical aspects of production. That used to be a problem occasionally, when he worked with the wrong people or followed the wrong trends. (Under the Red Sky, for instance, is such a disappointment after the brilliant Oh Mercy). But he seems to have found a team, certainly from Time out of Mind onwards, that has a knack for making his unique voice and the low-tech music sound gorgeous.

Oh, and while I often agree with you, Dusty, I SO disagree about Mark's songwriting skills that I won't even begin to argue. The people you mention are (or were, in cases like McCartney) great, of course, but Mark's mix of talents (as listed by Quizzy) and what results from it is almost peerless, in my opinion.

[Love Expresso]

Compared to the names Dusty listed, MK as a songwriter is irrelevant, sorry to say and speaking as a long time fan.

You can see it by the ratio of men and women at concert audiences by the way. Men don't go to concerts because of good songwriting.   If you would ask the people at the shows, I would assume that 90% would say stuff like "Dire Straits (not MK) were just great, great times in our youth, great guitarist, they love the weed aspect of DS 70's music and the cool times. No one apart from first row amiters would say stuff like Quizzy about song structure, meaning of lyrics ("... yeeeeah, Romeo and Juliet, Ding da-ding, la la la") . Ask random song titles (Madame Geneva anyone? Sucker Row?) and you will see shrugged shoulders.
Freddie Mecury and even John Deacon are more relevant as songwriters than MK. It's a total niche musician and it is exactly that's what he wanted. It's only hard for fans to accept.

LE


 

[Love Expresso]

Note that all around always stress out how "prolific" he is
 That's mainly about the numbers of songs, not the quality. It's not enough to write about anything that crosses your path or cranks your traktor like books, overheard remarks and stuff. It has to be applicable for the audience in one way or the other.

LE

[Love Expresso]

Take the lyrics from One Song At The Time. How much knowledge about MK's personal life, his career and the historical background do you need to understand it? Is that really good songwriting? It might be well crafted and eloquent, but is it really relevant or applicable to most of the listeners?

LE

[Rolo]

Compared to the names Dusty listed, MK as a songwriter is irrelevant, sorry to say and speaking as a long time fan.

You can see it by the ratio of men and women at concert audiences by the way. Men don't go to concerts because of good songwriting.   If you would ask the people at the shows, I would assume that 90% would say stuff like "Dire Straits were just great, great times in our youth, great guitarist, they love the weed aspect of DS 70's music and the cool times. No one apart from first row amiters would say stuff like Quizzy about song structure, meaning of lyrics ("... yeeeeah, Romeo and Juliet, Ding da-ding, la la la") . Ask random song titles (Madame Geneva anyone? Sucker Row?) and you will see shrugged shoulders.
Freddie Mecury and even John Deacon are more relevant as songwriters than MK. It's a total niche musician and it is exactly that's what he wanted. It's only hard for fans to accept.

LE

HA!
Well said.

I remember when MK has just released Shangri-la or KTGC,  innumerous critiques about MK's recent songwritting popped on Guy's forum.
People said things like:
Next MK album already have the song titles such as "Squeeze the Lemon", "Hit your brakes" and "I Forgot the Car Keys"

Most of the "rock" public are interested in great vocals, intense drumming, guitar solos and simple lyrics.
Just one sentence can turn a simple song into a novel.

It's a total niche musician and it is exactly that's what he wanted. It's only hard for fans to accept.

100% agreed.

Take the lyrics from One Song At The Time. How much knowledge about MK's personal life, his career and the historical background do you need to understand it? Is that really good songwriting? It might be well crafted and eloquent, but is it really relevant or applicable to most of the listeners?

LE

You nailed it

[stratmad]

Well, relevant to whom, and for what? The music, the lyrics, the guitar, the emotions, the performances? There are so many aspects to songwriting, and you cannot separate it from the records and performances in this case.

Not sure about "niche music". That's not how you sell millions of records and 10,000-seats venues, as he did on virtually every tour since STP.
His name (not only DS!) is well known even to non-music fans, casual radio audiences. And that's certainly not doen to excessive marketing ;-)

Re "men don't listen to lyrics" - I know many men who do, and some women who don't. It's maybe more a question of formal education, language skills or personal interest.

As far his relevance as a songwriter is concerned, that's difficult. We all agree that Dylan is probably the most relevant songwriter in history, but how many titles (or even songs) do people actually know? Blowin' In the Wind, and most people won't even know it's a Bob song. Same goes for Cohen, Springsteen, Lennon/McCartney, Queen and all the others.
Re quality: same problem. All of the above artists have produced absolute gems at some point in their careers, but that doesn't mean they only produced top-notch poetry all the way through. "Obladi-oblada", "I'll be your baby tonight", "We will, we will rock you"...

It's an endless story. I think the question at the end of the day is what will people (men, women and smally furry creatures from Alpha Centauri) be listening to, what songs will be remembered, in 50 or a 100 years' time? We may not be here to see it, but my guess is that there will be a few MK/DS songs, and a few songs by all the other big names. That's my hope, anyway.