Guitar players thoughts on the song Love over Gold

[Barrow boy]

Hey everyone, 3 years ago I started playing guitar, acoustic and electric mainly fingerstyle thanks to Mark and I've been learning a lot of the songs from DS and solo career. As a personal goal I would love to write my own songs sometime. When I'm learning a new song I use to try to figure out things like if I'm writing the songs. For me it's like some training in how to make them, chords progressions, structures...Well the point is that last winter I started learning Love over gold and I can't figure out how someone could easily write something like that musically speaking. Maybe it's the fact that I'm just starting learning music but it seem to me pretty hard songwriting right here. I love the song and the more I learn it the more I love it its kind of crazy. I would love to hear from all of you who play guitar or have some knowledge in music and try to discuss things so we can try to figure out how mister Mark Knopfler made such a beautiful song. So if you play guitar or any other instrument feel free to use this post to talk about MK related music it can be any song. Maybe there is some similar post on this topic so excuse me if that's the case.
Cheers!

[Barrow boy]

So to start with something, the first thing that confuses me its the chord progression and that it seems messy trough the verse section. It doesn't have any logical structure to me but it suits the lyrics perfectly. How would you come with something like that out of nothing? It's a case of building a song around the lyrics? With the intro and outro chord progressions I don't find any trouble they are for the most part the same chords over and over again. But the structure of the verse is what to me seems like the most difficult thing to create as a song writer.

[Barrow boy]

Key:F major
Verse:

F/A
     Bb                  Gm7       C
    You walk out on the high wire
  Gm7
          F/A           Bb   Bb  C7
You’re a dancer on thin ice
 F
            Gm7         Bb     C 
You pay no heed to the danger
A7#5  A7
               Dm   C  Fsus4  F
And less to advice
      Gm7              Bb     C
Your footsteps are forbidden
             A7#5   A7           
But with a knowledge of your sin
Bbmaj7  Bb6  F
                Gm7           
You throw your love to all the
   Bb      F
strangers
     Dm                  Dsus2
And caution to the wind

[quizzaciously]

>I can't figure out how someone could easily write something like that musically speaking

But who said it was easy? It took Mark 3 months to write Romeo And Juliet and that's an "easy" 5-chord song compared to 30-chord (!) Love Over Gold. Not only Mark was able to write it, but he also brought it to the musicians and explained how it works, which requires serious chops in understanding music theory (genius musicians can learn all this through practice alone, mere mortals can learn it through books as well).

>Maybe it's the fact that I'm just starting learning music but it seem to me pretty hard songwriting right here

Yes and yes.

>I love the song and the more I learn it the more I love it its kind of crazy

That looks like the definition of the word "classic" to me.

***

This is indeed a very beautiful song, and it's pretty much piano-oriented. The very first chord of the verse, F/A, sounds pretty dull on the guitar and is not common, especially as a first chord, but it sounds amazing on the piano. It sounds at home in this song too, and reminds me of another piano-based title track Mark wrote a decade later — On Every Street, which starts with F/C and sounds even duller on guitar.

When a songwriter writes songs that work the best not on their primary instrument, it's a sign of a high level of their craftsmanship. How do they do it? Just listen to the "Bridge Over Troubled Water" Demo by Paul Simon he recorded on one acoustic guitar. The WHOLE song is there, it's just a little bit different. And in this case, unfortunately, even though Larry Knechtel made an amazing arrangement of this song for the piano, it's such a strong song, no contribution would make anyone its co-writer.

[Barrow boy]

Hey quizzaciously! Love to hear from you, your videos have helped me a lot in the last 3 years.

I made up the fact that Mark wrote Love over Gold easily, just trying to hide how jealous I am from his talent
Mark's songwriting became so complex pretty quick, I know that he played guitar for a pretty long while by the time of Making movies or Love over Gold. Maybe experience, or the different musicians he was meeting at that time helped him evolve into that "cinematic" or "storytelling " songwriting.

[rmarques821]

1980 - 1984 was the period when Mark's composing abilities peaked. The level of musical complexity in Love Over Gold (the song) is astonishing. There are some weird shapes and chords that he used, and I've no idea how he even thought of using those notes, but they fit perfectly within the song.
I spent a long time learning that song note by note (thanks Pavel).

[JF]

I think he had such ideas by reading a book about jazz chords (can't remember the title right now), and also by searching things on the piano rather on the guitar.
when you "see" chords on a keyboard it's a total different thing than "seing" them on a neck. So you want to play some different root notes for example, and then you have other ideas than if you compose only on guitar

[quizzaciously]

I think he had such ideas by reading a book about jazz chords (can't remember the title right now), and also by searching things on the piano rather on the guitar.
when you "see" chords on a keyboard it's a total different thing than "seing" them on a neck. So you want to play some different root notes for example, and then you have other ideas than if you compose only on guitar

@Barrow boy and @rmarques821 Thank you, guys!

Yes, it was really funny when I first found out about Mel Bay's "Atomic Power In Every Chord" book Mark mentioned somewhere, as I read it I realised he used all these shapes right away as he learned. These chords are not rocket science by any stretch of the imagination, these are relatively simple chords that I learned exactly after the 3rd year of playing guitar. For 10 years after that though, I would learn how to use them and hear them properly, so it's not that easy.

And somebody like Mark, who is a self-taught guitar player, could find out about these chords by transcribing records or noodling around on the guitar without any deep knowledge behind it, but he used them in songs probably when he had gained enough knowledge and confidence in actually using them. It's like now this ridiculous shape is officially a Bb6 chord! It has a standard shape, notes, name, etc.

So the fact @Barrow boy has been playing for 3 years is exactly the sweet spot to start incorporating more chords, and the right moment to think about this stuff.

[hunter v2.0]

A song like Love Over Gold doesn't come "out of nothing", but is a result of immersing oneself in jazz and advanced harmony. To a beginner, the chords and chord choices may seem "weird" or unusual, but they have to be viewed in the context of creating a chord progression (knowing a bit about basslines helps). Chords such as F/A (F with A in the bass; the "third" of the chord in the bass instead of the root note, i.e. the first inversion of the chord) feel "unstable" and are usually used as "passing chords". Try to play F - F/A - Bb. Or C - C/E - F. Or G - G/B - C. The first chord of the song could very well have been a regular F, but by using F/A, the interval (or "jump") between the first chord and the next, the Bb, becomes much smaller and "smoother". To create a jazzy and sophisticated feel, it is important to use small, and often chromatic, intervals. It's the same with diminished chords: Gmaj7 - G#dim7 - Am7. You get a chromatic chord progression, instead of going straight from the G to the Am.

[rmarques821]

I would also like to say that the chord progression that starts at 1:08 in the video below is one of the greatest musical moments of all-time, in my view.

[quizzaciously]

I would also like to say that the chord progression that starts at 1:08 in the video below is one of the greatest musical moments of all-time, in my view.

Yes! I agree 100%. And this build-up with drums is one of my favourite drum fills of all time. Which, of course, you wouldn't find in lists like "1000 best drum fills" because it's a forgotten and underrated song When I recorded this little vid, this moment gave me goosebumps. Personally, my favourite moment in the song is the RHYTHM guitar part that's in the 0:45 moment in my video, hence my stupid grin. I can't help but smile each time I hear this.

[hunter v2.0]

I would also like to say that the chord progression that starts at 1:08 in the video below is one of the greatest musical moments of all-time, in my view.

Really? It's an extremely common IV - V progression. Mark's solo (wonderfully played by Pavel, by the way) is super tasteful (why hasn't Mark played anything like this in his solo years???), but the progression is as standard as it gets. Sometimes I feel fans of Mark give Mark more credit than he is due.

[quizzaciously]

I would also like to say that the chord progression that starts at 1:08 in the video below is one of the greatest musical moments of all-time, in my view.

Really? It's an extremely common IV - V progression. Mark's solo (wonderfully played by Pavel, by the way) is super tasteful (why hasn't Mark played anything like this in his solo years???), but the progression is as standard as it gets. Sometimes I feel fans of Mark give Mark more credit than he is due.

Thank you! It was a request by the way, it wasn't my idea to play this solo, but I'm glad I recorded it.

Speaking of the simple chord progression, I think it's the instance where "how" matters more than "what". Yes, it's a simple progression and was also used in Romeo And Juliet's outro, the way it's done is really something else though. And "super tasteful" is a good way to put it. Not only Mark's solo is great, but drums, vibes, fretless bass, piano, and synths, all come together to produce this amazing nostalgic landscape. So I think that's actually an appropriate moment to praise Mark the producer.

[hunter v2.0]

I would also like to say that the chord progression that starts at 1:08 in the video below is one of the greatest musical moments of all-time, in my view.

Really? It's an extremely common IV - V progression. Mark's solo (wonderfully played by Pavel, by the way) is super tasteful (why hasn't Mark played anything like this in his solo years???), but the progression is as standard as it gets. Sometimes I feel fans of Mark give Mark more credit than he is due.

Thank you! It was a request by the way, it wasn't my idea to play this solo, but I'm glad I recorded it.

Speaking of the simple chord progression, I think it's the instance where "how" matters more than "what". Yes, it's a simple progression and was also used in Romeo And Juliet's outro, the way it's done is really something else though. And "super tasteful" is a good way to put it. Not only Mark's solo is great, but drums, vibes, fretless bass, piano, and synths, all come together to produce this amazing nostalgic landscape. So I think that's actually an appropriate moment to praise Mark the producer.

Oh sure, the instrumentation and 'sound' are wonderful. The production, if you will, and of course for this Mark deserves praise. Without Mike Mainieri, though, it wouldn't have been the same. I'm pretty sure Mark gave him green light to play whatever he felt was appropriate.

[Barrow boy]

I'll try to find Mel Bay's book somewhere on the internet now I have the need to read it hahaha. For me the best part of the song if I had to choose would be the chorus (it takes love over gold...) I love the Bb C Ebmaj7 Gm7 Bb6 A7#5 Dm7 ending on the huge F#7#9/C# C13 and the melody "walking" into C#/B
Although what I enjoy the most is playing the lead parts fills and solos like in Pavel's video it's incredibly satisfying to play the whole thing!