(11) This one’s not going to end well

[rmarques821]

My Bacon Roll wasn't about Brexit per se, but the character was described by MK as "Brexit man" and I knew exactly who he meant as soon as he said it. There are lots of them in the UK. They are pejoratively known as "gammons", basically old white men who don't like that things are changing and that lots of people don't want the country to be run by old white men anymore.

Here's a prime recent example:

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/lee-anderson-defect-reform-uk-tories-sunak-b1144526.html

I find your comment absolutely ridiculous. I'm not sure why the colour of the skin is even relevant. I don't detect anything in the song that even refers to white people. Old black or asian people don't also struggle with things changing around them?

It’s relevant because IN MY OPINION and also perhaps my importantly, in my experience, this is what “Brexit man” usually looks like, and MK says the song is about Brexit man. I don’t see myself like that, but clearly I’m in a minority in the UK, as those who wanted Brexit made up the majority here.

I was deployed in the UK from 2014 to 2018 and, in my experience, the majority of the people I interacted with that wanted Brexit were British Indians and to a lesser extent Pakistanis, some of them had moved to UK back in the 70's. On the other hand, most of the white British people I talked to were in favour of remaining in the EU.
This is why I find the idea of the Brexit man as "white old man" as ridiculous and, in a way, quite discriminatory.

But I should also say, as a P.S., that I understand where you're coming from as this discourse against natives and "white old people" was becoming quite common among some factions of the political spectrum in the UK, at least when I was there, and being used for ideological reasons. So I understand very well what you mean. And since I haven't set foot in the UK since 2018, I can deduce it's still around.

Ok, so your experience is the complete opposite of mine. That’s fine. I’m not going to start calling your posts ridiculous. But the idea that old white men are being discriminated against is amusing, and I say that as one myself.

I didn't say they are being discriminated against in general, I said your comment was discriminatory because it was based on racial and age profiling. Fortunately I come from a country and culture where making this kind of comment is (still) discriminatory, whether the people are young or old, white, black or blue, men, women or martians.
But, like I said, I did live in the UK for a while so I know the ideological reasons behind why (some) people do it.

Although this conversation derived from My Bacon Roll, I won't make any more comments on it, as this isn't a political or sociological forum.

[Love Expresso]

And it is the sub thread from title (11) from ODR which are threads that should collect all there is to know about the song, the lyrics etc. So if this matter is from so much importance that it needs more discussion, maybe a new own thread would be good.

I often use these threads from old albums because they collect a lot of interesting stuff. It would be good to keep these clear from off-topic discussions as much as possible in my opinion. It is not that I want to stop the discussion but the place where it takes place.

LE

[dustyvalentino]

My Bacon Roll wasn't about Brexit per se, but the character was described by MK as "Brexit man" and I knew exactly who he meant as soon as he said it. There are lots of them in the UK. They are pejoratively known as "gammons", basically old white men who don't like that things are changing and that lots of people don't want the country to be run by old white men anymore.

Here's a prime recent example:

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/lee-anderson-defect-reform-uk-tories-sunak-b1144526.html

I find your comment absolutely ridiculous. I'm not sure why the colour of the skin is even relevant. I don't detect anything in the song that even refers to white people. Old black or asian people don't also struggle with things changing around them?

It’s relevant because IN MY OPINION and also perhaps my importantly, in my experience, this is what “Brexit man” usually looks like, and MK says the song is about Brexit man. I don’t see myself like that, but clearly I’m in a minority in the UK, as those who wanted Brexit made up the majority here.

I was deployed in the UK from 2014 to 2018 and, in my experience, the majority of the people I interacted with that wanted Brexit were British Indians and to a lesser extent Pakistanis, some of them had moved to UK back in the 70's. On the other hand, most of the white British people I talked to were in favour of remaining in the EU.
This is why I find the idea of the Brexit man as "white old man" as ridiculous and, in a way, quite discriminatory.

But I should also say, as a P.S., that I understand where you're coming from as this discourse against natives and "white old people" was becoming quite common among some factions of the political spectrum in the UK, at least when I was there, and being used for ideological reasons. So I understand very well what you mean. And since I haven't set foot in the UK since 2018, I can deduce it's still around.

Ok, so your experience is the complete opposite of mine. That’s fine. I’m not going to start calling your posts ridiculous. But the idea that old white men are being discriminated against is amusing, and I say that as one myself.

I didn't say they are being discriminated against in general, I said your comment was discriminatory because it was based on racial and age profiling. Fortunately I come from a country and culture where making this kind of comment is (still) discriminatory, whether the people are young or old, white, black or blue, men, women or martians.
But, like I said, I did live in the UK for a while so I know the ideological reasons behind why (some) people do it.

Although this conversation derived from My Bacon Roll, I won't make any more comments on it, as this isn't a political or sociological forum.

Yes, yes, of course my comment about a fictional character is racial profiling and discriminatory against them, lol. Now who’s being ridiculous?!

“Brexit man” does not mean every man who voted for Brexit. It’s a specific type of person, and as I said, there were and still are, lots of them in the UK, and they are old white men. (Look! I did it again! Oh no! The fictional character should call a fictional lawyer and raise a fictional law suit against me!)

[stratmad]

In the "Classic Rock" interview, the interviewer quotes the following line from the song:

"They whip up old lies to ride into power, and history comes back from hell".

When the interviewer asks MK if this is connected to the rise of right-wing parties in Europe and Trump, he agrees that that was on his mind when he wrote it.
After that, they have a long discussion about political extremism, fake news, people complaining and going on strike about whatever they don't like, whether it's social inequality or migration, people who can't cope with the world changing around them.
As far as I understand it, Mark doesn't actually make any political statement in the interview. He says it's far too complex, but people would like to have simple solutions.
 
So, TONGTEW seems to be a highly political song.
Somehow, when I was reading all that, I was reminded of Dylan's "Man of Peace" from the Infidels album: "Could be the fuhrer, could be the local priest, sometimes satan comes as a man of peace". I'm really curious now!

[Iron Hand]

This also sort of confirms, in retrospect and to me, that "Heavy Up" was a (veiled) shot at Trump, or generally the kind of self-important person he represents.

[stratmad]

Agree. Simon Cowell springs to mind as well...

[Robson]

Agree. Simon Cowell springs to mind as well...

Doesn't Simon Cowell appear in Early Bird?

[stratmad]

Agree. Simon Cowell springs to mind as well...

Doesn't Simon Cowell appear in Early Bird?

Yes, he does. But maybe MK dislikes him so much that he appears in two songs 🤣

It's this line that made me think of Cowell:
How much is your praise really worth?
About the same as your thumbs down

[Robson]

Agree. Simon Cowell springs to mind as well...

Doesn't Simon Cowell appear in Early Bird?

Yes, he does. But maybe MK dislikes him so much that he appears in two songs 🤣

It's this line that made me think of Cowell:
How much is your praise really worth?
About the same as your thumbs down

But I have a question again:) Where do these words come from?

[stratmad]

Heavy up lyrics:
https://songmeanings.com/songs/view/3530822107859590166/

[Robson]

Heavy up lyrics:
https://songmeanings.com/songs/view/3530822107859590166/

Sorry, I was thinking about "This One's Not Going To End Well"

[Stanko]

Agree. Simon Cowell springs to mind as well...

Doesn't Simon Cowell appear in Early Bird?

Yes, he does. But maybe MK dislikes him so much that he appears in two songs 🤣

It's this line that made me think of Cowell:
How much is your praise really worth?
About the same as your thumbs down

Correct.

As for the world I live in, I can't cope with the world changing to worse, and I'm white and a bit of "old" in all the social and political correctness you could think of.

[Love Expresso]

To me this one is among the three or four best songs on the album. Such a nice melody. Goosebumps all over when he sings "...for anyone".

There are much more lovely tunes and melodies on this album. One Deep River a clear 5/5 for me.
Astonishing after the 1/5 DTRW.

LE

[superval99]

To me this one is among the three or four best songs on the album. Such a nice melody. Goosebumps all over when he sings "...for anyone".

There are much more lovely tunes and melodies on this album. One Deep River a clear 5/5 for me.
Astonishing after the 1/5 DTRW.

LE

5/5 sounds good to me!    I would have given DTRW 2/5   

I have just heard this morning that my album is on its way to the store, so I'm getting very excited now!   Roll on Friday!   

[Beryl]

Beautiful tune indeed. This song alone has more musical ideas than all the DTRW songs combined.