New DS Live Box Set, 3rd November 2023!

[Robson]

Every time I see this bus and the countries that Dire Straits didn't reach, I feel sorry.

[Matchstickman]

Frankly, I have always been more of a fan of the OES tour than LOG/Alchemy. Back in 1983, DS was still something of a retro-rock band. Mark's guitar sound was mostly pretty thin for rock guitar. Later, after the BIA tour and around the time of 1988, the Mandela gig and the Clapton tour, Mark moved into the Pensas and a fatter overdriven sound.

The live intro to Heavy Fuel on OTN seems inconceivable in 1983 - by 1992, Mark had reached full guitar hero status, stadium rock mode. (He probably picked up the habit of introducing songs with some improvised loud noodling from Clapton on the tour with him (like on Crossroads in 1988).)

As much as I like the Sultans version from Alchemy, overall that record does simply not feature my favourite type of sound overall. Industrial Disease, Expresso Love... They sound a bit thin for rock songs, whereas the OES tour sound on CE, When it Comes to You, ITILYTM, Solid Rock, etc., is great - fatter, with more bite. Phil Palmer probably played a part in this, and was mixed louder than Hal Lindes (at least on recordings, Hal is often barely audible).

But of course Alchemy is more famous album - it was the first, after all, and the first "live" encounter with DS on record. And it had THE Sultans version.

[herlock]

My criticism was more directed to OTN as an overproduced live album, than to the OES tour itself. The OES tour was the only one I got to see for real, I have fond memories of it. Mark was on top on this playing. I'm one of the few here who really appreciate TOL from this era. Even Sultans, I overall prefer the Alchemy version, but I find the sax break so lovely on the OES tour.
I don't find the earlier sound "thin", the Schecter sound is pretty heavy to me, I find the Pensa tone rather soft in comparison.
And Mark may have moved to Stadium Rock for the OES tour, but then he got sick and tired of it, and came back to basis: smaller scale Fender, Les Paul, rather than "one size fits all" Pensa...

[JF]

Chris, you say that 99,99% live album have overdubbs

I hope you are talking about thoses recorded during eighties and nineties and afterwards, but it's not the case in "legendary" live albums right ?

I can't think that there are overdubbds in :

- get yer ya-ya's out !
- rock'n'roll animal
- ABB at Filmore East
- woodstock
- Wight
- Derek & the Dominos at the Fillmore
- Cream at the fillmore
- Live/dead
- The last waltz
- Rust never sleeps

etc...

I know some of them do have editing, but that's not the same think than overdubbing in the studio...

[kumchenko]

About Last Walts from wiki: Finally, according to musical director John Simon, during post-production, the live recording was altered to clean up "playing mistakes, out-of-tune singing, bad horn-balance in the remote truck. Only Levon's part was retained in its entirety."

[dustyvalentino]

Chris, you say that 99,99% live album have overdubbs

I hope you are talking about thoses recorded during eighties and nineties and afterwards, but it's not the case in "legendary" live albums right ?

I can't think that there are overdubbds in :

- get yer ya-ya's out !
- rock'n'roll animal
- ABB at Filmore East
- woodstock
- Wight
- Derek & the Dominos at the Fillmore
- Cream at the fillmore
- Live/dead
- The last waltz
- Rust never sleeps

etc...

I know some of them do have editing, but that's not the same think than overdubbing in the studio...

https://cinemontage.org/steve-maslow-on-the-last-waltz/#:~:text=%E2%80%9CRick%20Danko%20decided%20after%20the,switch%20to%20the%20overdub%20bass.

Overdubbed bass on Last Waltz apparently.

[Brunno Nunes]

Frankly, I have always been more of a fan of the OES tour than LOG/Alchemy. Back in 1983, DS was still something of a retro-rock band. Mark's guitar sound was mostly pretty thin for rock guitar. Later, after the BIA tour and around the time of 1988, the Mandela gig and the Clapton tour, Mark moved into the Pensas and a fatter overdriven sound.

The live intro to Heavy Fuel on OTN seems inconceivable in 1983 - by 1992, Mark had reached full guitar hero status, stadium rock mode. (He probably picked up the habit of introducing songs with some improvised loud noodling from Clapton on the tour with him (like on Crossroads in 1988).)

As much as I like the Sultans version from Alchemy, overall that record does simply not feature my favourite type of sound overall. Industrial Disease, Expresso Love... They sound a bit thin for rock songs, whereas the OES tour sound on CE, When it Comes to You, ITILYTM, Solid Rock, etc., is great - fatter, with more bite. Phil Palmer probably played a part in this, and was mixed louder than Hal Lindes (at least on recordings, Hal is often barely audible).

But of course Alchemy is more famous album - it was the first, after all, and the first "live" encounter with DS on record. And it had THE Sultans version.

If arena rock is everything to you, I can understand your point of view. For me, each phase has its own beauty and flavor, I know how to appreciate each phase and extract the best, I know the nuances of each tour, repertoire, guitar tones, arrangements and atmospheres interest me and I love to appreciate the musical evolution of the songs as they go. Over time, this is part of my fun.
If I could be at a Dire Straits show, I would choose Rockpalast 79 or Rainbow Theater 79 over Nimes or Rotterdam 92, even Wembley 85, the simpler the more magic for me, that sound of the Knopfler brothers' fender guitars and Pick's drumming playing the songs on the first two albums is something priceless, it will always have a very special place in me, I don't deny that I'm a purist.

[Robson]

" I don't deny that I'm a purist"

Unlike MK. Mark is not a purist 

[dustyvalentino]

https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/live-albums-w-studio-overdubs.10793/

[herlock]

Frankly, I have always been more of a fan of the OES tour than LOG/Alchemy. Back in 1983, DS was still something of a retro-rock band. Mark's guitar sound was mostly pretty thin for rock guitar. Later, after the BIA tour and around the time of 1988, the Mandela gig and the Clapton tour, Mark moved into the Pensas and a fatter overdriven sound.

The live intro to Heavy Fuel on OTN seems inconceivable in 1983 - by 1992, Mark had reached full guitar hero status, stadium rock mode. (He probably picked up the habit of introducing songs with some improvised loud noodling from Clapton on the tour with him (like on Crossroads in 1988).)

As much as I like the Sultans version from Alchemy, overall that record does simply not feature my favourite type of sound overall. Industrial Disease, Expresso Love... They sound a bit thin for rock songs, whereas the OES tour sound on CE, When it Comes to You, ITILYTM, Solid Rock, etc., is great - fatter, with more bite. Phil Palmer probably played a part in this, and was mixed louder than Hal Lindes (at least on recordings, Hal is often barely audible).

But of course Alchemy is more famous album - it was the first, after all, and the first "live" encounter with DS on record. And it had THE Sultans version.

If arena rock is everything to you, I can understand your point of view. For me, each phase has its own beauty and flavor, I know how to appreciate each phase and extract the best, I know the nuances of each tour, repertoire, guitar tones, arrangements and atmospheres interest me and I love to appreciate the musical evolution of the songs as they go. Over time, this is part of my fun.
If I could be at a Dire Straits show, I would choose Rockpalast 79 or Rainbow Theater 79 over Nimes or Rotterdam 92, even Wembley 85, the simpler the more magic for me, that sound of the Knopfler brothers' fender guitars and Pick's drumming playing the songs on the first two albums is something priceless, it will always have a very special place in me, I don't deny that I'm a purist.

I love all eras. I wouldn't say the one is superior to the other. If I am in a bare-bones stripped-down mood, I go for '79. If I am in a badass over the top mood (it seems it happens to me, even here 🙂), I go for'85 or' 92. And I love them all, really.

Mark had moods in terms of complexity. In 80 he added one keyboardist, then a second one in 82, then a sax player in 83, then pedal steel in 91. And then in '96, a decrease, enough of all this tralala, gone is the sax, gone is the pedal steel. Then, in 2008, increase again, welcome folkies! In 2013, sax again! And 2019, the brassies! Started to look overcorwded like' 92!

[NicoMK]

I think that the Alchemy tour was more rough and rock and roll. The OES tour reflected the previous two releases (BIA and OES) which are heavily produced and attempting to achieve perfection. Alchemy has five people on stage, OTN nine. That was entirely Mark's decision and reflected the way he wanted the tour to sound.
It doesn't matter to me which live album people prefer, or which line-up, just so long as they don't blame individual musicians for the way things sounded, because Mark was 110% in control. Likewise the mixing of the OTN album. No one did anything they weren't asked to do by Mark.

Haven't posted for a while but I just wanted to thank Chris W. for his contribution sand for making this thread absolutely great. Very informative, thank you!

[Chris W]

Chris, you say that 99,99% live album have overdubbs

I hope you are talking about thoses recorded during eighties and nineties and afterwards, but it's not the case in "legendary" live albums right ?

Only the people involved would know for sure.
If a show is recorded on a multi-track (since the 70's at latest), you could overdub and fix parts.
I was shocked once when I saw a documentary about a famous conductor recording a symphony for an album. They literally played each short section of the music multiple times until it was perfect, then moved on. The whole piece was edited together from short one to ten minute sections. This is apparently completely routine in orchestral recording.

[quizzaciously]

Chris, you say that 99,99% live album have overdubbs

I hope you are talking about thoses recorded during eighties and nineties and afterwards, but it's not the case in "legendary" live albums right ?

Only the people involved would know for sure.
If a show is recorded on a multi-track (since the 70's at latest), you could overdub and fix parts.
I was shocked once when I saw a documentary about a famous conductor recording a symphony for an album. They literally played each short section of the music multiple times until it was perfect, then moved on. The whole piece was edited together from short one to ten minute sections. This is apparently completely routine in orchestral recording.

I'd say nothing wrong with overdubs. An unedited live show is a vastly overrated thing. If you want to hear a live show, you buy a ticket and go to a concert... Everything else is recorded, edited, mixed and mastered by default.

Not every mistake is created equally, some of them might ruin the whole performance, and some can occasionally enhance it. Either way, you create something for eternity, not for the moment, and nobody wants to glare at the mistakes for the rest of history.

To me, a live album is more or less the “how I remember the show” situation much like modern remasters of old video games with 20-25 years of advancements in technology is the way you remember them. And you remember it being flawless, of course! So it’s like a dream.

It’s cool when you can afford a completely unedited performance, I doubt jazz cats and Nashville veterans ever use overdubs on anything… But not everybody is a virtuoso and a genius, and sometimes a little editing won’t hurt.

[herlock]

MK solo recordings are unedited, mixed on the fly, and distributed "as it is". They are full of mistakes. And I deeply enjoy them...

[Chris W]

I doubt jazz cats and Nashville veterans ever use overdubs on anything… But not everybody is a virtuoso and a genius, and sometimes a little editing won’t hurt.

Everybody overdubs and edits. How much is another matter. As I said, even elite orchestras record in short bursts and edit the sections together to achieve absolute perfection. It's about using the technology to achieve the 'best' result, it has nothing to do with genius or virtuosos players. Virtuoso players demand even more perfection.
Mikes Davis' iconic 'jazz-rock' albums consisted of editing together the 'best' bits of lengthy jams into shorter bite size pieces.