No Sultans of Swing!!

[qjamesfloyd]

It is clear that Sultans of Swing brought Dire Straits and Mark Knopfler into huge focus, to many people it is the number 1 song that is brought to mind when they and he are talked about, the song has had a huge influence in the guitar world, and the songwriting world too, but I was wondering, would it have been harder for Dire Straits to have got noticed without that song ever having been written? would Charlie Gillet still have been so excited by the band? I am sure Mark's talent would have found a way anyway, but, I just wonder what the implication of no Sultans of Swing would have been?

[dustyvalentino]

Yeah, I don't think they ever would have made it without Sultans.

[quizzaciously]

To be honest, I still don't get the hype about Sultans. It's a damn long (6 minutes almost!), repetitive, "boring" song. When I tell people, regular folks, that I have a channel with Mark Knopfler & Dire Straits music, they sometimes Google it right on the spot and take a listen, and when they hear Sultans it's clear to me they don't get it at all, and Sultans is clearly not the type of music they would want to hear, they just fall asleep listening to it. It has cool guitar licks in it... Aaaand?

Still, I think without Sultans, Dire Straits would be huge. Songs like Brothers In Arms, Money For Nothing, and Your Latest Trick alone are enough to launch any band into the stratosphere. MK&DS are not a one-hit wonder, luckily. But when you compare the popularity of Sultans against all other songs, you can think they are indeed a one-hit-wonder. I remember the poll on the MKNews website with favourite songs, and Sultans got more than half of all the votes.

[quizzaciously]

To be honest, I still don't get the hype about Sultans. It's a damn long (6 minutes almost!), repetitive, "boring" song. When I tell people, regular folks, that I have a channel with Mark Knopfler & Dire Straits music, they sometimes Google it right on the spot and take a listen, and when they hear Sultans it's clear to me they don't get it at all, and Sultans is clearly not the type of music they would want to hear, they just fall asleep listening to it. It has cool guitar licks in it... Aaaand?

Still, I think without Sultans, Dire Straits would be huge. Songs like Brothers In Arms, Money For Nothing, and Your Latest Trick alone are enough to launch any band into the stratosphere. MK&DS are not a one-hit wonder, luckily. But when you compare the popularity of Sultans against all other songs, you can think they are indeed a one-hit-wonder. I remember the poll on the MKNews website with favourite songs, and Sultans got more than half of all the votes.

With that said, of course, Sultans made millions of young fellas pick up a guitar for the first time, it has a distinctive 70s vibe to it and gets used in movies with this time period (like Argo), but if you look past all that guitar-hero, nostalgic, twiddly-bits stuff, what you get? A song with A LOT of words, NO melody, and repetitive structure based on Flamenco cliches. What really saved the song was Mark's unique guitar playing, and Pick's outstanding drumming.

I don't think that any other band would make it, should they write Sultans first. It's a uniquely Mark Knopfler creation.

[JF]

monday night, after the jam where I go playing guitar (like every monday), the pub played a random spotify playlist and there was a lot of good music (based on bartenders tastes I think) : Stones, Lynyrd skynyrd... and... Down to the waterline.
of course my opinion is biased as a fan, but the song fits so well in the playlist with classic rock tunes. stunning atmosphere in the intro, fluid guitar playing, JJCale-ish vocals, perfcet melody during the solo, nostalgic lyrics, catchy rhythm... of course you all know that, but I bet Dire Straits would have been noticed with others songs than Sultans

[peterromer]

When thinking of MK´s devotion and how his determination towards making records has been over the years, I would absolutely say Yes, sooner or later that man would have made a breakthrough. SOS is superb but he has made a ton of other superb songs has he not. Even super big hits for the "general public". There you have the answer. 

[dustyvalentino]

Still, I think without Sultans, Dire Straits would be huge. Songs like Brothers In Arms, Money For Nothing, and Your Latest Trick alone are enough to launch any band into the stratosphere.

But these songs probably never would have been written or released if Sultans hadn't been a hit.

Lets just imagine a world without Sultans. Does the band get signed? Probably not, but lets pretend it does. What's the hit single from the first album? There isn't another obvious contender.

So lets say the record company are patient and give the band a second chance with another album. What's the hit single? Is Lady Writer going to get played on the radio and become a hit if DS are not already known? No.

So lets pretend the record company is REALLY patient and gives them a third album (unlikely). Jimmy Iovine wouldn't want to produce an unknown band most likely, also they probably wouldn't get Roy Bittan. You also have the butterfly effect that MK likely hasn't met Holly Beth Vincent, BUT taking all that into account, R&J might have been a hit at that point. However, it's setting DS up (no pun intended) as a power ballad group like REO Speedwagon or something rather than a guitar hero thing.

So, in my opinion, no Sultans, no DS, at least not anything like DS as we know it.

[quizzaciously]

Still, I think without Sultans, Dire Straits would be huge. Songs like Brothers In Arms, Money For Nothing, and Your Latest Trick alone are enough to launch any band into the stratosphere.

But these songs probably never would have been written or released if Sultans hadn't been a hit.

Lets just imagine a world without Sultans. Does the band get signed? Probably not, but lets pretend it does. What's the hit single from the first album? There isn't another obvious contender.

So lets say the record company are patient and give the band a second chance with another album. What's the hit single? Is Lady Writer going to get played on the radio and become a hit if DS are not already known? No.

So lets pretend the record company is REALLY patient and gives them a third album (unlikely). Jimmy Iovine wouldn't want to produce an unknown band most likely, also they probably wouldn't get Roy Bittan. You also have the butterfly effect that MK likely hasn't met Holly Beth Vincent, BUT taking all that into account, R&J might have been a hit at that point. However, it's setting DS up (no pun intended) as a power ballad group like REO Speedwagon or something rather than a guitar hero thing.

So, in my opinion, no Sultans, no DS, at least not anything like DS as we know it.

Yes, precisely, not DS as we know it. Mark would eventually write a hit single that would launch him to the stars, no doubt about it, but that would be a more humble, less famous DS. I sometimes think that if you leave Sultans, then you'll get the true picture of Mark's legacy. A niche, unique music that was never intended to be as popular as your typical band that everybody knows. Not the type of band to shoot a biopic movie about. No Eagles, no Queen or ABBA.

Sultans turn everything upside down when you can't really tell whether a man is a fan of this song alone, or Mark's guitar playing in general. When everybody, including me, heard this riff somewhere but don't know who it was. My brother thought "Money For Nothing" was the intro theme for "Beavis & Butthead". I think Sultans single-handedly gets Mark to all the lists of best guitar players.

So yes, Mark got really lucky with Sultans, being exactly at the right place, the right time.

[JF]

What's the hit single from the first album? There isn't another obvious contender.

I think Waterline could have been the one
fast driven song, short length, lick ans melody you can remember easily, leitmotiv at the end of each verse, and we can imagine a radio edit that starts after the intro, directly into the song.
I think it could have been a "hit", not mega-hit for sure, but enough to make the band "known"

[JF]

What's the hit single from the first album? There isn't another obvious contender.

I think Waterline could have been the one
fast driven song, short length, lick ans melody you can remember easily, leitmotiv at the end of each verse, and we can imagine a radio edit that starts after the intro, directly into the song.
I think it could have been a "hit", not mega-hit for sure, but enough to make the band "known"

and it was included in the MFN comp, assuming it was among the band's "best of" tunes so to say

[2manyguitars]

No Sultans no success in my opinion.

SOS was one of those rare songs that came out at a certain moment in history but are timeless and impossible to place. Think about it, 1978, disco, glam, and the hight of punk. Along comes this melodic song played with real musicianship with a ridiculously pure guitar tone, 'Sung', no almost spoken, and about what? A jazz band of all things. Its an outlier, and much as I love the first album nothing comes remotely close to it on these terms.....

[dmg]

I've got to agree with 2many and Dusty.  There are loads of bands out there looking to make it big but the planets have to align and they did when Sultans was sent to Charlie.  It was the right song at the right moment.  No Sultans no party!

Waterline (preferably with the intro cut) could've been an interesting alternative, but we'll never know.

[Robson]

The whole discussion is hypothetical. My question: if Lady Writer was on the first album would it be the same?

[dustyvalentino]

The whole discussion is hypothetical.

Yes. Yes it is.

[dustyvalentino]

Not convinced Waterline would have launched the band. It took long enough for Sultans to become a hit!