On The Night - Ridiculously Bad???

[ds1984]

OTN is not good but not bad either.

We know that songs are edited and even composite from several nights.

I don't think that they had technical problem with the recording itself, as most of the amps on that tour actually were not set on the stage so they did not suffer form the monitors.

[Eddie Fox]

I run a small studio and have taught music technology for nearly 25 years Rolo. Trust me when I say you can fix anything in post production, and its way simpler than calling in musicians to completely redo parts.

If you don't believe Eddie and I  then see guys forum latest question for the definitive answer.

Exactly. Take Mark’s stage rig as an example. He has always at least two amps mic’d up individually, stereo. If he’s not happy with the tone he got as he’s mixing the song he can do his little tweaking, play around with amp 1 and 2, and hit the spot. That’s exactly what I think he did with Your Latest Trick.

[Rolo]

Exactly. Take Mark’s stage rig as an example. He has always at least two amps mic’d up individually, stereo. If he’s not happy with the tone he got as he’s mixing the song he can do his little tweaking, play around with amp 1 and 2, and hit the spot. That’s exactly what I think he did with Your Latest Trick.

 
Ask Peter Frampton if Frampton Comes Alive has overdubs.

I suppose that you guys are thinking that Mark overdubbed entire songs. Its not the case.
Don't forget that MK replaced vocals on PB for the MFN compilation.

But, that's fine.
Everyone has his own good arguments

[2manyguitars]

Exactly. Take Mark’s stage rig as an example. He has always at least two amps mic’d up individually, stereo. If he’s not happy with the tone he got as he’s mixing the song he can do his little tweaking, play around with amp 1 and 2, and hit the spot. That’s exactly what I think he did with Your Latest Trick.

 
Ask Peter Frampton if Frampton Comes Alive has overdubs.

I suppose that you guys are thinking that Mark overdubbed entire songs. Its not the case.
Don't forget that MK replaced vocals on PB for the MFN compilation.

But, that's fine.
Everyone has his own good arguments

Rolo, if you're going to make claims like that then you'll need some evidence. MFN was contractually obliged. Again I doubt MK had much to do with putting it together. Its simple, he doesn't look back, including compilation and live albums....

[Rolo]

Rolo, if you're going to make claims like that then you'll need some evidence. MFN was contractually obliged. Again I doubt MK had much to do with putting it together. Its simple, he doesn't look back, including compilation and live albums....

https://ultimateclassicrock.com/peter-frampton-we-left-the-mistakes-on-frampton-comes-alive/

“In those days, technology was not as it is today. It just wasn't as technical. We've come a long way, obviously. So unfortunately, on a couple of the tracks, only, some instruments were not recorded because there was crackling on the tape or the assistant or the guitar tech didn't move a mic. (As for) the number of times that anything is overdubbed on 'Frampton Comes Alive!'... the rule was, if it didn't make it to the tape, then we can redo it because it needs to be done. If it made it to the tape, and it sounds good, we leave it. So nothing was overdubbed on that album at all that wasn't absolutely necessary."

“I'll tell you exactly what happened when we mixed the live album, so there are no ifs, buts, where or whats. This was the rule that I had when we made “Frampton Comes Alive!,” being known as a live performer, I'm not going to go into the studio and overdub. If you want to say that, say that about 'Kiss Alive,' because they borrowed my guitars and my amps to do those overdubs."

Eddie Kramer also worked on the overdubbing sessions for Kiss Alive (77)

I didn't find the photo of the magazine who MK said that he needed to redo some vocals on Portobello. I'll search it deeply.

I am not sure about it (probally not) , but i believe that my friend Brunno Nunes made an analysys about it comparing the Alchemy bootlegs to the remix on the MFN compilations and he spotted the differences.

[Brunno Nunes]

I have no doubt that OTN is a true mosaic where scenes from two different places were used, often for the same song, Calling Elvis is an excellent example, I showed this in an analysis I did, scenes with 1 microphone, scenes with 2 microphones, with an overdub right at the entrance, after Mark's first guitar note, when the whole band and the sound mass enter, Mark says something like, "yeah, Alright", (I don't remember if that's what he speaks) but, if you have Deezer, just open the CE from the OTN and put it at the point 0:58 seconds Mark shouting that scream, then listen to any of the CE versions from the 4 nights that were used to elaborate the OTN and you will notice that there is no such line, suggesting that this was an overdub.

In addition, as far as I remember now, only Your and Your Friend and Brother in Arms are the faxes that are basically 100% the same as those present in the Bootlegs, that is, there is no "tampering" of any kind. There are parts of guitars that are only contained in the OTN and are not present in any of the 4 recordings that were used to assemble the OTN, which luckily we have available for analysis, I already did that and I know that through this analysis it is possible to identify where it contains overdubs , it's not about being improbable, it's something factual, those who have doubts just have the patience and courage to do this analysis that I already did, I did it with pleasure, because I love to investigate these details, I did it and I prove it.

[Brunno Nunes]

It is unfortunate that NONE of Dire Straits' live releases reveal an experience of what a real concert was like in the entirety of a given tour, that's how it was with Alchemy, that's how it was with OTN, Live at The BBC, from a historical point of view it's a sacrilege, woe betide us if it weren't for the Bootlegs, because if it were up to the band, we would never know that Industrial Disease, Love Over Gold, Twisting by The Pool and Portobello Belle were played on the LOG tour, the Bootlegs are always more honest than the official live releases, as I always say, the story of any band is incomplete if it doesn't go through the bootlegs.

[Rolo]

It is unfortunate that NONE of Dire Straits' live releases reveal an experience of what a real concert

Hey, Brunno. Was you that interviewed Joop de Korte by facebook years ago and he said that the band needed to recreate stage scenes for the Alchemy VHS?

You also spotted some differences from the bootlegs and the official record?

[Brunno Nunes]

It is unfortunate that NONE of Dire Straits' live releases reveal an experience of what a real concert

Hey, Brunno. Was you that interviewed Joop de Korte by facebook years ago and he said that the band needed to recreate stage scenes for the Alchemy VHS?

You also spotted some differences from the bootlegs and the official record?

Actually I didn't interview him, he had participated in a thread that in a Facebook group about Mark Knopfler and Dire Straits, I remember that I was participating in the debate and he brought this information about Alchemy , he said that When they were editing the alchemy video they noticed they didn't have enough close ups of the musicians, and they gathered in a a studio and played a concert just for film close ups. Joop said that MK didn't have his alchemy arrows t-shirts and they used a white one with black stickers to simulate the arrows, I remember he mentioned that for this reason there is little presence of Tommy Mandel in the recording, as he had returned to NY after the tour.

[quizzaciously]

It is unfortunate that NONE of Dire Straits' live releases reveal an experience of what a real concert

Hey, Brunno. Was you that interviewed Joop de Korte by facebook years ago and he said that the band needed to recreate stage scenes for the Alchemy VHS?

You also spotted some differences from the bootlegs and the official record?

Actually I didn't interview him, he had participated in a thread that in a Facebook group about Mark Knopfler and Dire Straits, I remember that I was participating in the debate and he brought this information about Alchemy , he said that When they were editing the alchemy video they noticed they didn't have enough close ups of the musicians, and they gathered in a a studio and played a concert just for film close ups. Joop said that MK didn't have his alchemy arrows t-shirts and they used a white one with black stickers to simulate the arrows, I remember he mentioned that for this reason there is little presence of Tommy Mandel in the recording, as he had returned to NY after the tour.

That makes sense... Close-ups are important, after all. I still think it doesn't matter how "live" the live album is, it will never be even close to the real show, so they can cut it however they want. I still remember this huge disappointment when I visited my first live gigs after being exposed to live albums. It's a different experience, much like watching football on TV vs watching it live in the stadium. Not like either is bad, it's just like they... have different purposes.

[Robson]

"Joop said that MK didn't have his alchemy arrows t-shirts and they used a white one with black stickers to simulate the arrows"

I don't know if I wanted to know about it

[Brunno Nunes]

It is unfortunate that NONE of Dire Straits' live releases reveal an experience of what a real concert

Hey Bruno. Was you that interviewed Joop de Korte by facebook years ago and he said that the band needed to recreate stage scenes for the Alchemy VHS?

You also spotted some differences from the bootlegs and the official record?

Actually I didn't interview him, he had participated in a thread that in a Facebook group about Mark Knopfler and Dire Straits, I remember that I was participating in the debate and he brought this information about Alchemy , he said that When they were editing the alchemy video noticed they didn't have enough close ups of the musicians, and they gathered in a a studio and played a concert just for film close ups. Joop said that MK didn't have his alchemy arrows t-shirts and they used a white one with black stickers to simulate the arrows, I remember he mentioned that for this reason there is little presence of Tommy Mandel in the recording, as he had returned to NY after the tour.

That makes sense... Close-ups are important, after all. I still think it doesn't matter how "live" the live album is, it will never even be close to the real show, so they can cut it however they want. I still remember this huge disappointment when I visited my first live gigs after being exposed to live albums. It's a different experience, much like watching football on TV vs watching it live in the stadium. Not like either is bad, it's just like they... have different purposes.

Excuse the bluntness, Pavel, but you are being extremely conformist in this respect here. It is evident that it is one thing to be present at a band's concert, to buy a ticket and go to watch it, and another thing is to watch the concert after a post-production through a screen, but, you are disregarding the character historical of leaving a record with the minimum of a real experience of a moment in the trajectory of a band, note that in the case of Alchemy it is a show on the LOG tour and in all the shows on the tour the repertoire contained the presence of ID, LOG, TBTP and PB , the band will record a live recording in audio and video for a future release, everyone who was physically at the site contemplated the set in full, except those who only purchased the release on LP, cd or video, as there is a lack of songs and from the historical point of view of the trajectory of the bandis a sacrilege, the same thing happens with OTN, because, in addition to the absence of fundamental songs in a DS show, such as Sultans Of Swing, TOL or TR, both with new clothes in this period. Anyway, they made a real mosaic, mixing scenes from different dates and places for the same song, it has overdubs scattered at various points, this causes a permanently artificial air and this is very remarkable in OTN. For these and other reasons Basel 92 or Nimes in September 92, are more honest in presenting a real performance of Dire Straits in that period, this has much more importance, at least for me and the OTN request in this sense in my opinion.

[Brunno Nunes]

"Joop said that MK didn't have his alchemy arrows t-shirts and they used a white one with black stickers to simulate the arrows"

I don't know if I wanted to know about it

This is yet another factor that demystifies Alchemy as a 100% product without overdubs, a faithful record of a Dire Straits concert at that time, this idea was sold for decades and it didn't work out like that.

[quizzaciously]

Oh yeah, I perfectly acknowledge that I'm a conformist. I'm an extremely casual fan in that regard. It's hard for me to come to any conclusion though... Historic accuracy is great if you're searching for it. I'm sure for 99% of people, including those who attended the shows, both Alchemy and On The Night are as historic as it gets, and only 1% will see the change of venues or, in one case, I remember somebody noticed the change of a snare drum on one of the songs or something. I represent a strange mixture of both. I love accuracy and precision, but on the other hand, can live perfectly well without ever hearing Sultans and Telegraph from the 90s (I think I heard it only once), or experiencing some apparently heavy post-production. I generally trust the artist... And I think you simply can't survive being 100% true to history in this business. Some compromises are inevitable, like mentioned close-ups for Alchemy. It's an interesting story.

[Brunno Nunes]

I want to point out that I don't completely disdain overdubs on some live shows, for me it's valid for correcting notable mistakes like Terry's at the end of Solid Rock on the last night at the Hammersmith Odeon in 1983, but, OTN has a lot of overdubs, plus a lot of mix and absence of fundamental songs, it is not possible to think that OTN is a tour souvenir, it is far from it, Basel or Nimes are at the forefront in this and Alchemy sins for even today with all available technology still continuing with the absence of ID, LOG , TBTP and PB.