On The Night - Ridiculously Bad???

[the visitor]

Interesting thread.

I think the winning thing about Alchemy is that MK didn't actually think about it too much; I remember reading him saying he had a whole bunch of tapes to listen to so just went for the Saturday night at the end of the tour because that would be the best. I think there was also around this time the wake of the Thin Lizzy Live amd Damgerous album which was on Vertigo and also a 2lp, and has criticisms that it was overdubbed. That's why you get the statement in the album that you do, that it contains 'excerpts from a live concert and no overdubs' which on face value is true, albeit some creative mixing used to edit Marks words before Tunnel of Love on the audio release.

By comparison On the Night is an agonised manicured affair, taking cuts from different shows and very audible heavy processing on the vocals, or even overdubs...who knows.  I think maybe MK as a perfectionist by 1993 was looking at a contractual document of the tour rather than something to propel the career as in 1982/3. Hence major surgery on source material by now was the norm, and that extended to live recordings. From this angle, I'm almost glad we don't have any official 1985 recordings.

For me On the Night was a welcome replacement to my chewn cassette from radio of the Woburn Abbey show. Apart from missing key songs like Sultans and Telegraph Road, there isn't much really to differentiate the performances.

[Brunno Nunes]

In my point of view, On The Night errs by not revealing a full concert of the OES tour
I think that to register what would be the band's last tour, it left something to be desired with this release, mainly due to the absence of songs that were played in all the shows of this tour like SOS, Two Young Lovers (which I'm not a big fan of on this tour, but since it was part of the setlist, it should have been on any official tour release, especially since it was the last one), Telegraph Road or Tunnel Of Love and songs that were in the set at that time of the tour, May 1992: When It Comes to You , Fade to Black and Think I love you too much. Since it is not a record of a single show, it is "stitched" around 4 dates in two different places, it would be much more feasible to add all these songs that ended up being left out, or else, that Rotterdam or Nimes were released, both in full. From the audio point of view, notably the artificial factor is present all the time, Mark's voice is very disturbed here, the Calling Elvis video is badly edited, I show this in an article that Júlio mentioned at the beginning of this debate. I always felt something strange and quite artificial in this Calling Elvis performance, now I understand why, it's not a whole song, it's all mutilated, a well done montage, quite the opposite of The Alchemy, it has lots of overdubs, it must have been a lot of effort to merge the scenes, sync, edit artificial audio and video, in your latest trick all mark's Guitar Is completely re-recorded...not so "live", the record Is a mixing parts of different shows and this creates an artificial atmosphere.

Even so, it has incredible versions, probably definitive for some songs like You and Your Friend, (miracle that song is present in this release) for me, the great moment of the record, the BIA version here is a show, as well as Solid Rock and Wild Theme.

[dustyvalentino]

Thanks for your analysis Bruno.

Do we have any evidence that the guitar on YLT was re-recorded?

[quizzaciously]

Thanks for your analysis Bruno.

Do we have any evidence that the guitar on YLT was re-recorded?

I can hardly believe that Mark Knopfler, with this attitude he had at the time, would even bother to re-record such a minor part for a live compilation album. It does look unsynchronised on the video sometimes, maybe they used a part of the guitar track from one night, and from another night? Who knows what they did...

"Hey Mark, we're mixing an old song of yours from 1985 for a live album, could you please come over and re-record one of the parts?", — "No, thanks"

Also, according to Chris Whitten, they played "You And Your Friend" almost every show, despite what all setlist websites and bootlegs claim, according to him it wasn't a rare song at all, and so naturally, it found its way on live DVD.

[ds1984]

There is really good interesting stuff played on that tour.

How much has been properly recorded?

If there is one tour I'd wished to be in charge to release as a multidisc boxset this is that one :

2 CD featuring an actual  full setlist taken from selected nights
1 CD of song not feature on the first two CDs
1 CD of alternate live version (including rehearshal) of title already featured on the previous three CDs

[JF]

That's why you get the statement in the album that you do, that it contains 'excerpts from a live concert and no overdubs' which on face value is true, albeit some creative mixing used to edit Marks words before Tunnel of Love on the audio release.

there is also an edit at the end of Solid rock, because Terry missed the famous break on 23th so they took the one from 22th

and in the video, I think there are aslo some close-ups which are not from the same date. Sometimes the microphones are not exactly the same ones

[JF]

Apart from missing key songs like Sultans and Telegraph Road, there isn't much really to differentiate the performances.

fully agree

[JF]

editing live shows to release a live album is a common practice

Led zep's The song remains the same has a lot of edits, cuts, remix, etc...

The last waltz movie have almost all songs not entirely and cut, versus the album version which have the complete versions of songs (except Further down up the road : https://textes-blog-rock-n-roll.fr/il-y-a-45-ans-the-band-faisait-ses-adieux-a-la-scene/)

Zappa used to always edit his live recordings, adding overdubbs, mixing from different sources, etc... but it was intentionnaly to make something else, a patchwork between live and strudio takes

Neil Young's Rust never sleeps was recorded live, but they took off the crowd noise, in order to make it sound like a studio album: https://textes-blog-rock-n-roll.fr/rust-never-sleeps-de-neil-young-fete-ses-40-ans-aujourdhui/

Pink Floyd's live at Pompei has some scenes filmed in Paris : https://textes-blog-rock-n-roll.fr/il-y-a-50-ans-pink-floyd-jouait-a-pompei/

[quizzaciously]

editing live shows to release a live album is a common practice

Led zep's The song remains the same has a lot of edits, cuts, remix, etc...

The last waltz movie have almost all songs not entirely and cut, versus the album version which have the complete versions of songs (except Further down up the road : https://textes-blog-rock-n-roll.fr/il-y-a-45-ans-the-band-faisait-ses-adieux-a-la-scene/)

Zappa used to always edit his live recordings, adding overdubbs, mixing from different sources, etc... but it was intentionnaly to make something else, a patchwork between live and strudio takes

Neil Young's Rust never sleeps was recorded live, but they took off the crowd noise, in order to make it sound like a studio album: https://textes-blog-rock-n-roll.fr/rust-never-sleeps-de-neil-young-fete-ses-40-ans-aujourdhui/

Pink Floyd's live at Pompei has some scenes filmed in Paris : https://textes-blog-rock-n-roll.fr/il-y-a-50-ans-pink-floyd-jouait-a-pompei/

I agree, you can barely find unedited live albums, if at all. After all, the artist releases something for posterity, these things will be heard and watched by a lot of people, and you don't want glaring imperfections and mistakes sticking like a sore thumb for decades, so editing is understandable and even inevitable.

Heck, even for my YouTube videos, I usually record everything live, but if I encounter a little mistake that will bore me for the rest of my life, I just edit it. Now, if it's a major mistake, I would rather rerecord the whole thing, but you can't usually do it with a live show or the band on a grand tour.

On The Night might be not a perfect live album, but surely an order of magnitude more people watched it than bootlegs of this tour, and they tried everything they can to polish it, albeit making it a bit less live. Just like in Mark's rant about over-polished Telegraph Road sounding nothing like Rave On! by Buddy Holly.

[quizzaciously]

P.S. The funniest thing about my edited mistakes is that they bother me only at the time of making whatever I'm making. Over time, when I listen to the unedited version, I actually like it better (usually) and sort of wish I would not edit it in the first place. But at the time it really bothers me, so I pull the trigger. Chet Atkins used to say, "All the mistakes are intentional." And I treat any creative product as just a creative effort at the time and nothing else. If they fancy doing some edits to make it better, I'll take it, as long as it doesn't make a dramatic difference. I mean Mark knew that it won't be a true live album, because he manually selected the best versions of songs from different shows, it was the job of editors and crew to make it all work. As was mentioned before, it's NOT a dramatic difference as the songs sound almost exactly like they were performed live.

So why worry now?

[dmg]

Let's remember the much fabled Alchemy has the ending of Solid Rock pasted from a different night and a couple of other tracks cut from the release, so it isn't quite the holy grail.  It also finds the band at a time prior to its peak and release of greatest hits songs.

I'd agree that On the Night does sound too polished but doesn't everyone do it?  Basel wasn't the best of performances with a couple of blips on BIA and Wild Theme if I recall.  I would honestly rather listen to any number of bootlegs than either.  Also, if looking for a soundboard, aren't we forgetting the Nîmes show from 29.09.92

[Jules]

Let's remember the much fabled Alchemy has the ending of Solid Rock pasted from a different night and a couple of other tracks cut from the release, so it isn't quite the holy grail.  It also finds the band at a time prior to its peak and release of greatest hits songs.

I'd agree that On the Night does sound too polished but doesn't everyone do it?  Basel wasn't the best of performances with a couple of blips on BIA and Wild Theme if I recall.  I would honestly rather listen to any number of bootlegs than either.  Also, if looking for a soundboard, aren't we forgetting the Nîmes show from 29.09.92

Yes, Alchemy has some bits edited here and there but remains a very accurate live recording of a live concert.

OTN is like a studio record, made with parts of different nights for each song, exactly how a studio record is made. For me that's not a live record of a live show.

About bootlegs I always prefer Basel to Nimes as this last happened near the end when they were very autopilot and looking forward to end, while in Basel they were still fresh, or fresher than in Nimes.

[dmg]

Let's remember the much fabled Alchemy has the ending of Solid Rock pasted from a different night and a couple of other tracks cut from the release, so it isn't quite the holy grail.  It also finds the band at a time prior to its peak and release of greatest hits songs.

I'd agree that On the Night does sound too polished but doesn't everyone do it?  Basel wasn't the best of performances with a couple of blips on BIA and Wild Theme if I recall.  I would honestly rather listen to any number of bootlegs than either.  Also, if looking for a soundboard, aren't we forgetting the Nîmes show from 29.09.92

Yes, Alchemy has some bits edited here and there but remains a very accurate live recording of a live concert.

OTN is like a studio record, made with parts of different nights for each song, exactly how a studio record is made. For me that's not a live record of a live show.

About bootlegs I always prefer Basel to Nimes as this last happened near the end when they were very autopilot and looking forward to end, while in Basel they were still fresh, or fresher than in Nimes.

I'd agree with you but just thought I'd throw it out there as the 2nd visit to Nîmes is often overlooked.  Very much autopilot though, as you say.

[JF]

I rarely listen to a bootleg from the OES tour, but when I do it, I go for Dublin kickoff or one CIRCA early 92 with PONO or ITILYTM, but that's all

[2manyguitars]

Wasn't there a comment from Mark in an interview around Alchemy release time talking about how he'd been in a studio somewhere recording when some famous artist/band was in the next door studio recording overdubs for a so called 'live' album?

it was just the comments about OTN overdubs that triggered a distant memory....