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Author Topic: On The Night - Ridiculously Bad???  (Read 36315 times)

OfflineBrunno Nunes

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Re: On The Night - Ridiculously Bad???
« Reply #195 on: November 18, 2023, 01:47:08 AM »
Furthermore, this topic developed at a time when no one dreamed that this box would be released, which has been available to all of us since the beginning of this month, which is wonderful, very welcome, I loved it, especially Rainbow Theater 79.

But one of the aspects discussed here is about the song Calling Elvis in On the Night, for me it is clear that it is the result of elements from three shows, Paris, Nimes and Rotterdam between April and May 92, and possibly guitar parts created in the studio and added upon release in 1993. I've been taking a while to research this track, just trying to decipher how it was put together for OTN. Either way, it's wonderful to have the most complete OTN and Alchemy, better late than never.
Let's go down to the waterline!

my blog : https://universodirestraits.blogspot.com

OfflineRobson

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Re: On The Night - Ridiculously Bad???
« Reply #196 on: November 18, 2023, 02:55:45 AM »
Furthermore, this topic developed at a time when no one dreamed that this box would be released, which has been available to all of us since the beginning of this month, which is wonderful, very welcome, I loved it, especially Rainbow Theater 79.

But one of the aspects discussed here is about the song Calling Elvis in On the Night, for me it is clear that it is the result of elements from three shows, Paris, Nimes and Rotterdam between April and May 92, and possibly guitar parts created in the studio and added upon release in 1993. I've been taking a while to research this track, just trying to decipher how it was put together for OTN. Either way, it's wonderful to have the most complete OTN and Alchemy, better late than never.

It's true but I hoped that there would be detailed descriptions in the booklet of each album.
I know the way I can see by the moonlight
Clear as the day
Now come on woman, come follow me home

Offlinemariosboss

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Re: On The Night - Ridiculously Bad???
« Reply #197 on: November 18, 2023, 03:50:58 AM »
I'm in the minority here it seems but one of the reasons why I loved Dire Straits was the drum sound and patterns.
Of course they are technically different from the start with Pick to let's say Chris (fantastic to hear from you on these forums, a massive fan of your work.)
First two albums are organic. No need to add anything else.
Third album really went up 3 gears. That drum sound on Making Movies is excellent, even Pick talks about it in interviews regarding how tough it was getting sounds for the producer... Skateaway was an example he mentioned. But those songs are bombastic sounding. Wouldn't work with the sound of Communique.

Love Over Gold i've had disagreements on this forum regarding the drums where Pick does say in interviews that a lot of it wasn't natural... whether he played to programme drums (which is what some posters have suggested) or the programmed drums are what we are hearing (industrial disease is an example) i'm not sure about. But the songs on Love Over Gold were phenomenal and for once I wasn't necessarily air-drumming to the songs, more listening to the lyrics and playing my tennis-guitar.

Alchemy - whilst a fair few of the songs are perhaps a bit too long, I do like the arrangements and here we find Terry Williams giving it a bit more of a rocky feel. I'd like to mention that had the drums at this point sounded like Knopfler and his solo career, so very softly played, in slower / different tempos I wouldn't be interested.

Let's face it even from a young age apart from the Money For Nothing intro I knew Terry WIlliams wasn't on drums for the rest of the song and album. I thought there was something not quite right and it made sense that a sessioned drum player had overseen most of the drumming on BIA. Even as a 7 year old kid I wasn't having any of it, like when Def Leppard fans were shocked to find out that Pyromania wasn't Rick Allen on drums, but merely a drum machine. It's obvious to the ear but hey fans can either be more into the song (lyrics/vocals) and dismissive of drums and their sound.

The On Every Street Album didn't particularly have any exciting drum licks or sounds, Calling Elvis aside, that was quality in terms of percussion, the end of Heavy Fuel obviously had a few fills.... that's not to say that drum fills are the key to an album but a bit like the previous album it was Knopfler's craft that stood out. Even if the likes of Jeff Porcaro and Manu Kache featured.

This brings me onto the live album On The Night. Listen, I love a big hitter. I thought Chris did an outstanding job bringing a lot of the songs on the last few albums alive, and even his skills on the earlier stuff. It's stadium rock and you just can't have a bad drummer at those kind of gigs. Big, Bombastic. I mean Chris played alongside a percussionist and as usual Clark and Fletcher were on keys/piano. This was a massive band. Some posters have bizarre beliefs in that songs need to be in the style of Pick on drums for example. Well if that's the case get rid of the slide guitarist, 1 of the keyboardist etc. Dire Straits had moved on from the raw sounding animal we heard in 1978 or 1979. Chris was a phenomenal player and he reminds me of the arguments of old on the Led Zep forums. So when Jimmy Page and Robert Plant connected back in the 90's and the late great Michael Lee was on drums. Absolutely extroadinary drummer. I followed him from his time with the unknown underrated band The Little Angels. Lee was phenomenal and had drummed with the Cult, Echo And The Bunnymen, Bryan Adams, to name a few. His drumming on No Quarter and when Page/Plant went on tour was pehonemenal. Check out Jools Holland and The Wanton Song. Sadly a few dumb people criticised his playing for not having the groove of Bonham, I mean it's not 1975 it's 1995!  Things move on. So of course I (and Michael by the sounds of things) was surprised that the Led Zep O2 reunion ditched Michael Lee for Jason Bonham. Unfortunately for Lee his personal heath declined badly and he passed away just a few years later.

I think the point i'm getting at is we need to respect the times. Listen, personally I'm not much a fan of Knopfler's solo stuff and a lot of it is down to the shuffle/country/folk style drumming. Not my cup of tea but I respect it. If Expressso Love was played in such style i'd have thrown the vinyl away. However this is the style of music Knopfler is into now. Ironically he was the one that wanted a big-hitter apparently for those big On Every Street tours and look what happened to Chris and his hearing. I find the criticism bizarre. It's almost as though Knopfler literally pulled the plug on the Big rock sound after 1992. But there you go. I'm from a heavy rock background and I also love alternative/grunge/pop/rock/80's new wave/industrial rock etc. I'm not a huge fan of folk, and most folk on here are, so perhaps that's why I can't relate to much of what is said. But that's fine we all love different music. Point being, On The Night wasn't ridiculously bad. It was ridiculously professional. To everyone's liking? Maybe not. But considering the environment at the time and the difficulties band members would have with the leader (and I'm hugely influenced by the leader) i'm not brainwashed enough to know that it has a huge effect on morale and performances. BUT the performances from my ears were absolutely spot on!! From all players, especially Chris!

OfflineChris W

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Re: On The Night - Ridiculously Bad???
« Reply #198 on: November 18, 2023, 09:25:16 AM »
No, the drum playing and sound of the OES tour had nothing in common with Pick.
I went into the rehearsals and was pretty much told what to play by a trio of Mark, Allan and Guy.
I knew Mark absolutely LOVED Jeff Porcaro, and as Jeff was an idol to me too I started from the viewpoint - what would Jeff have played.
If you look at the McCartney tour, I was never told what to play. I decided that I wanted to pay homage to Ringo on The Beatles songs we played, I even played like McCartney on the solo material he'd made on his own in the studio.
There was never any space to explore different ideas in the OES rehearsals. It was - this is the way we've done it the last five years (BIA tour and various charity gigs).

Offlinedustyvalentino

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Re: On The Night - Ridiculously Bad???
« Reply #199 on: November 18, 2023, 09:40:45 AM »
Couple of things, I’m not sure what there is to disagree about LOG, Pick himself said that a drum machine was used for the industrial sounds on Industrial Disease, the link has been posted on here several times now.

And were the Little Angels unknown?! 30 years ago they had a UK number one album!

This was a favourite

https://youtu.be/JSgUti27vtw?si=PwtdSOVvWHUaWFAo
"You can't polish a doo-doo" - Mark Knopfler

OfflineChris W

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Re: On The Night - Ridiculously Bad???
« Reply #200 on: November 18, 2023, 09:53:10 AM »
I've never heard of them, but I don't like heavy/hard rock.

Offlineolazabalrok

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Re: On The Night - Ridiculously Bad???
« Reply #201 on: November 18, 2023, 02:49:27 PM »

The On Every Street Album didn't particularly have any exciting drum licks or sounds, Calling Elvis aside, that was quality in terms of percussion, the end of Heavy Fuel obviously had a few fills.... that's not to say that drum fills are the key to an album but a bit like the previous album it was Knopfler's craft that stood out. Even if the likes of Jeff Porcaro and Manu Kache featured.


Have to disagree here, OES still has the best drum sound on any DS/MK record to date. They are so well balanced, have a really big and punchy sound. And the playing of course, just sublime. They did use samples for some of the mix but that’s just one of the studio tricks you do. This is what Guy should have aimed for in the new mixes but we just got bland results. Oh well.

OfflineMatchstickman

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Re: On The Night - Ridiculously Bad???
« Reply #202 on: November 18, 2023, 04:44:43 PM »
On OES, the drum sound is very good on tracks like When it Comes. Sound and playing seem just right, very much "in the pocket".

But as for OTN, neither me nor my family ever noticed the editing. And I must have watched CE a hundred times as a young lad.

Offlinelocalhero1986

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Re: On The Night - Ridiculously Bad???
« Reply #203 on: November 18, 2023, 10:47:37 PM »
Ah come on. Let’s look at it from a distance: OTN is a great record of combined live recordings. The latest addition of new previously unreleased stuff is absolutely great. We’ve been listening to tons of audience recordings with crappy audio that made us smile. We now have proper mixed and mastered soundboard recordings (if you like Guys work or not, it’s always way better than any audience recording). In addition we get some great and unique insights in the tour and recording aspects by Chris (thanks so much for that Chris, much appreciated!!!).

Is it really that bad? No, we can be happy we have a chance to listen to a bunch of whole new live recordings. Sometimes I feel like listening to a Simfy live recording of an MK tour, sometimes OTN, Alchemy or whatever we have. Sit back, take a good glass of something and enjoy. 8)

In case you didn’t read my original post, it was focused chiefly on the video mixing of sources, and I stand by that.

And? It’s a mix of several gigs. Nice recording, nice shots. I still prefer watching OTN compared to a not so steady shaking mono-cam recording right behind the only tall guy somewhere in the middle of the audiencd. They put quite some effort in making a nice compilation of the OES tour. Don’t get the comment really…?

Offlinedustyvalentino

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Re: On The Night - Ridiculously Bad???
« Reply #204 on: November 19, 2023, 12:48:43 AM »
Ah come on. Let’s look at it from a distance: OTN is a great record of combined live recordings. The latest addition of new previously unreleased stuff is absolutely great. We’ve been listening to tons of audience recordings with crappy audio that made us smile. We now have proper mixed and mastered soundboard recordings (if you like Guys work or not, it’s always way better than any audience recording). In addition we get some great and unique insights in the tour and recording aspects by Chris (thanks so much for that Chris, much appreciated!!!).

Is it really that bad? No, we can be happy we have a chance to listen to a bunch of whole new live recordings. Sometimes I feel like listening to a Simfy live recording of an MK tour, sometimes OTN, Alchemy or whatever we have. Sit back, take a good glass of something and enjoy. 8)

In case you didn’t read my original post, it was focused chiefly on the video mixing of sources, and I stand by that.

And? It’s a mix of several gigs. Nice recording, nice shots. I still prefer watching OTN compared to a not so steady shaking mono-cam recording right behind the only tall guy somewhere in the middle of the audiencd. They put quite some effort in making a nice compilation of the OES tour. Don’t get the comment really…?

From my point of view, I had been watching a VHS recording of Basel for nearly a year by the time On The Night came out. It was, and is wonderful. Even as a child I could tell that OTN was phony.

(Basel was broadcast live throughout Europe. It was on Sky here in the UK. My family couldn’t afford Sky but my friend recorded it and I wore the tape out).
"You can't polish a doo-doo" - Mark Knopfler

OfflineRobson

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Re: On The Night - Ridiculously Bad???
« Reply #205 on: November 19, 2023, 02:15:56 AM »
Maybe it would be a good idea to direct the discussion about CE on OTN here, instead of developing a further topic about the box launching on 11/03/23.

The documentary 24 Heures portrays the show in 24.04.1992, Palais Omnisports de Bercy, Paris France, is the first of seven consecutive nights at Palais Omnisports de Bercy Paris, at 10:36 Mark uses the greeting present in the CE recordings on OTN, the same occurs in all 7 recordings at the Palais Omnisports de Bercy, Paris France, I was checking, but in none of the shows theoretically used for the OTN does Mark do the salute this way, (Nimes and Rotterdam). Note that at approximately 12:00 min of the video it shows a mobile studio, they are recording the show, this is a precious trace that the show was recorded by the band, probably the other six nights at Palais Omnisports de Bercy, Paris France as well. With this material in hand, they created the OTN, adding the shows in Nimes and Rotterdam and that CE has something from those nights in Paris, such as the greeting. However, I found that most of the audio is from Nimes FRA 21.05.92 and other small parts from Rotterdam 31.05.92. The parts that don't fit are either from shows that we don't have access to like the first and last night in Rotterdam, or they were prepared in some way in the studio.


https://youtu.be/dMu4xu1zu0U?si=yxsorbQwoWeaxcRD

Great document.
I know the way I can see by the moonlight
Clear as the day
Now come on woman, come follow me home

OfflineBrunno Nunes

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Re: On The Night - Ridiculously Bad???
« Reply #206 on: November 19, 2023, 04:49:51 AM »
Maybe it would be a good idea to direct the discussion about CE on OTN here, instead of developing a further topic about the box launching on 11/03/23.

The documentary 24 Heures portrays the show in 24.04.1992, Palais Omnisports de Bercy, Paris France, is the first of seven consecutive nights at Palais Omnisports de Bercy Paris, at 10:36 Mark uses the greeting present in the CE recordings on OTN, the same occurs in all 7 recordings at the Palais Omnisports de Bercy, Paris France, I was checking, but in none of the shows theoretically used for the OTN does Mark do the salute this way, (Nimes and Rotterdam). Note that at approximately 12:00 min of the video it shows a mobile studio, they are recording the show, this is a precious trace that the show was recorded by the band, probably the other six nights at Palais Omnisports de Bercy, Paris France as well. With this material in hand, they created the OTN, adding the shows in Nimes and Rotterdam and that CE has something from those nights in Paris, such as the greeting. However, I found that most of the audio is from Nimes FRA 21.05.92 and other small parts from Rotterdam 31.05.92. The parts that don't fit are either from shows that we don't have access to like the first and last night in Rotterdam, or they were prepared in some way in the studio.


https://youtu.be/dMu4xu1zu0U?si=yxsorbQwoWeaxcRD

Great document.

Thanks!!!!!


In an interview with MTV in 1991, when he was at the beginning of the OES tour 91/92, Mark mentioned his interest in visiting places he had not yet been to with Dire Straits, places like South America, Chile, Argentina and Brazil. I'm imagining what Dire Straits' time in South America would have been like, imagining that percussion solo by Dany and Chris' drums in Calling Elvis in the capital of Samba, Rio de Janeiro, the audience would go crazy!!!!
Not everything is perfect, just in our imagination!

https://youtu.be/zYNdVhTE6eo?si=5YsVImNLyLppWuV_

He mentions this at 16:46 of this video. Anyway, it's really worth watching in full, great testimonials from Mark and Ed.
Let's go down to the waterline!

my blog : https://universodirestraits.blogspot.com

OfflineChris W

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Re: On The Night - Ridiculously Bad???
« Reply #207 on: November 19, 2023, 09:26:51 AM »
Even as a child I could tell that OTN was phony.

It wasn't 'phony', again the comments are way too extreme. On The Night is a standard live album, like most other live albums.
I was part of the show (obviously). I have watched the Basel videos on Youtube many times, also watched the OTN DVD and listened to the OTN live album. None of it ever struck me as fake. I obviously understood, as a professional musician, that live albums and videos are edited, remixed, patched up to fix any obvious mistakes.

OfflineJules

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Re: On The Night - Ridiculously Bad???
« Reply #208 on: November 19, 2023, 12:17:03 PM »
Even as a child I could tell that OTN was phony.

It wasn't 'phony', again the comments are way too extreme. On The Night is a standard live album, like most other live albums.
I was part of the show (obviously). I have watched the Basel videos on Youtube many times, also watched the OTN DVD and listened to the OTN live album. None of it ever struck me as fake. I obviously understood, as a professional musician, that live albums and videos are edited, remixed, patched up to fix any obvious mistakes.

We totally understand that.

And they are too perfect, they are not a reflection of a live show because a live show is not perfect.

That's why many of us prefer the Basel or Nimes broadcasts as they are a live performance broadcasted live, and OTN an edited one looking for perfection, sacrificing the imperfections of a live show, that was what the people there lived during the show.
So Long

OfflineChris W

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Re: On The Night - Ridiculously Bad???
« Reply #209 on: November 19, 2023, 12:27:09 PM »
Neil Dorfsman was heavily involved in the making of 'Flowers In The Dirt' the McCartney album I played on.
It also sounds too 'perfect'. Heavily manipulated/processed acoustic drums.
Mark obviously had a choice on OTN and agreed to go with that vision of perfection.
I like and am proud of Basel too.
I just think there is too much OTT language in these discussions - like a record being 'phoney', and artists being 'ashamed' of their live recordings etc..

I mean the title too - ridiculously bad?
No, it is not to your taste, as 'bad' is subjective and one person's ridiculously bad is another person's ridiculously great. Either way it's more of an opinion than a fact.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2023, 12:45:35 PM by Chris W »

 

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