On The Night - Ridiculously Bad???

[olazabalrok]

I agree with Pavel. To me, Basel, Nimes or any show of the 91-92 tour sounds the same : ultra-polished, far too much reharsed, no improvisation at all (maybe few shows at the start of the tour had a little bit this flavour of "improvisation")
personnally, I don't find any diffrence between Basel broadcast or On the night : it's the same overproduced music

I was never found of this last tour. and any live recordings, being official release or TV broacast are the same for me.

I fell in love with Dire Straits by listening BIA and Alchemy. So I had the same impression Pavel had with OTN when I saw the Alchemy video for the first time.
Of course I am aware that our impressions are linked to our personnal life. It's all subjective.
But I will always far prefer Alchemy over OTN

To me there’s more improvisation to MK’s playing on some tracks on OES tour compared to LOG tour which was basically composed through. Sure, the energy was at it’s peak during LOG tour and has dropped every tour since then.

[quizzaciously]

Although it's not the reason I started this thread, the main difference between Basel and OTN is in the sound.

Without even taking into account the fact that solos etc are seemingly dropped in from multiple recordings or possibly rerecorded altogether, there are choices made in production, like reverbs etc. MK's vocals just don't sound "live" on OTN because of the way they have been processed.

I'd rather not have the cheese personally. You can literally visualise someone pressing the fader up on the crowd noise when the percussion/drum duel starts on Calling Elvis and its cheesy as hell.

Interesting. I listened to Calling Elvis again and would never even think about it. But why it's cheese? Any crowd would go nuts during a drums duel like this, so they genuinely recreated this, I guess. It's not suspicious at all! And I also can't hear too much of vocals enhancements as well, apart from obvious delays, etc., but I believe they were well rehearsed and added right away, why bother with it in the post? It's much easier to do it live, given the scale of this tour.

Overall you can't say that On The Night is ridiculously bad as there's nothing ridiculous or bad there. Yes, including the clothes!

I'm not a fanboy, I just probably have a higher pain threshold than Dusty when it comes to enjoying live DVDs and letting more things pass until I consider something really bad. I'm not even against overdubbing as long as it adds to the experience, and does not subtract. And we can't possibly know where something was added or not, I think that any of your favourite live recordings could be altered somewhere down the line because we're all humans and make mistakes.

[dustyvalentino]

Although it's not the reason I started this thread, the main difference between Basel and OTN is in the sound.

Without even taking into account the fact that solos etc are seemingly dropped in from multiple recordings or possibly rerecorded altogether, there are choices made in production, like reverbs etc. MK's vocals just don't sound "live" on OTN because of the way they have been processed.

I'd rather not have the cheese personally. You can literally visualise someone pressing the fader up on the crowd noise when the percussion/drum duel starts on Calling Elvis and its cheesy as hell.

Interesting. I listened to Calling Elvis again and would never even think about it. But why it's cheese? Any crowd would go nuts during a drums duel like this, so they genuinely recreated this, I guess. It's not suspicious at all! And I also can't hear too much of vocals enhancements as well, apart from obvious delays, etc., but I believe they were well rehearsed and added right away, why bother with it in the post? It's much easier to do it live, given the scale of this tour.

Overall you can't say that On The Night is ridiculously bad as there's nothing ridiculous or bad there. Yes, including the clothes!

I'm not a fanboy, I just probably have a higher pain threshold than Dusty when it comes to enjoying live DVDs and letting more things pass until I consider something really bad. I'm not even against overdubbing as long as it adds to the experience, and does not subtract. And we can't possibly know where something was added or not, I think that any of your favourite live recordings could be altered somewhere down the line because we're all humans and make mistakes.

Hey, it's all just opinion.

I don't believe the crowd goes nuts at the drum bit at other shows. I just checked Basel and it doesn't happen there for example. Drum solos are usually pretty pointless and not interesting. Danny technically plays well but musically in my opinion it's a waste of time, especially with Chris' crashy bashy cymbals over the top of it.

[dustyvalentino]

Overall you can't say that On The Night is ridiculously bad as there's nothing ridiculous or bad there.

I can and I did! The clothes are fine but MK's hair was ridiculous as well by this stage.

[quizzaciously]

I agree with Pavel. To me, Basel, Nimes or any show of the 91-92 tour sounds the same : ultra-polished, far too much reharsed, no improvisation at all (maybe few shows at the start of the tour had a little bit this flavour of "improvisation")
personnally, I don't find any diffrence between Basel broadcast or On the night : it's the same overproduced music

I was never found of this last tour. and any live recordings, being official release or TV broacast are the same for me.

I fell in love with Dire Straits by listening BIA and Alchemy. So I had the same impression Pavel had with OTN when I saw the Alchemy video for the first time.
Of course I am aware that our impressions are linked to our personnal life. It's all subjective.
But I will always far prefer Alchemy over OTN

To me there’s more improvisation to MK’s playing on some tracks on OES tour compared to LOG tour which was basically composed through. Sure, the energy was at it’s peak during LOG tour and has dropped every tour since then.

Mark's improvising was always top-notch and still is, all the way from day one to today. He's one of those guys about whom people usually say "he never plays something the same way twice", but he literally never plays something twice. You can download 20 versions of the same song and they all will be different (yes, I tried it). Mark's always improvising, and it's one of my favourite parts about his playing.

And improvisation is nothing but playing around patterns and sounds you've learned previously, so there's no such thing as true, genuine improvisation, i.e. playing from scratch, so the argument that Mark pre-learned every solo is not especially valid. You learn and play things to death in order to improvise, it's how it works!

[Jules]

When OTN dvd and cd were released, I've had watched and listened Basel and Nimes videos and audios, and also other soundboards from the OES tour and when OTN got released I remember thinking "this is a joke" so I totally agree with Dusty about OTN being ridiculously bad.

Anytime I want to listen a live sbd from that tour I never ever listen to OTN, never, unless I'm out of home and in Amazon music OTN is the only one available. I can't stand OTN. It's over produced like it would had been recorded in a studio instead in a live show. Basel and Nimes sound like a live show really, OTN is like a studio record with claps mixed.

[JF]

I agree with Pavel. To me, Basel, Nimes or any show of the 91-92 tour sounds the same : ultra-polished, far too much reharsed, no improvisation at all (maybe few shows at the start of the tour had a little bit this flavour of "improvisation")
personnally, I don't find any diffrence between Basel broadcast or On the night : it's the same overproduced music

I was never found of this last tour. and any live recordings, being official release or TV broacast are the same for me.

I fell in love with Dire Straits by listening BIA and Alchemy. So I had the same impression Pavel had with OTN when I saw the Alchemy video for the first time.
Of course I am aware that our impressions are linked to our personnal life. It's all subjective.
But I will always far prefer Alchemy over OTN

To me there’s more improvisation to MK’s playing on some tracks on OES tour compared to LOG tour which was basically composed through. Sure, the energy was at it’s peak during LOG tour and has dropped every tour since then.

yes you are right. I know that LOG was all nights pretty  the same. Even Hal Lindes said that Mark played the same solos at each show.
But he enjoyed playing that, and you can hear it.
in 91-92, he was bored to play, and I think you can hear it too

[quizzaciously]

Overall you can't say that On The Night is ridiculously bad as there's nothing ridiculous or bad there.

I can and I did! The clothes are fine but MK's hair was ridiculous as well by this stage.

But you are clearly in the minority here, and a very small minority, I must admit. I remember some people complaining about "questionable" 90s clothes choices on On The Night, but hair? No way! So you seem to have a gripe with this recording, and if you don't like something, you will find evidence to support your disapproval of it and vice versa. Just like I can find a million ways to defend it, you can find a million ways to destroy it. That's called personal preference, I suppose.

To me, ridiculous and bad means that something is obviously altered like a guy playing an instrument on video before or after its sound would come on, or overdubbing the sound that would not belong to the record like photoshopping something really badly, or straight up leaving major mistakes or noises where they shouldn't have been.

But all the rest is like make-up and women. I can't stand any excessive make-up, alteration to lips size or other body parts, etc. because to me it's always especially obvious and unnatural. Some people like it! But not me. And to me, On The Night is a fine girl with some decent make-up, it's definitely not a Barbie puppet as you're describing it.

[JF]

I agree with Pavel. To me, Basel, Nimes or any show of the 91-92 tour sounds the same : ultra-polished, far too much reharsed, no improvisation at all (maybe few shows at the start of the tour had a little bit this flavour of "improvisation")
personnally, I don't find any diffrence between Basel broadcast or On the night : it's the same overproduced music

I was never found of this last tour. and any live recordings, being official release or TV broacast are the same for me.

I fell in love with Dire Straits by listening BIA and Alchemy. So I had the same impression Pavel had with OTN when I saw the Alchemy video for the first time.
Of course I am aware that our impressions are linked to our personnal life. It's all subjective.
But I will always far prefer Alchemy over OTN

To me there’s more improvisation to MK’s playing on some tracks on OES tour compared to LOG tour which was basically composed through. Sure, the energy was at it’s peak during LOG tour and has dropped every tour since then.

Mark's improvising was always top-notch and still is, all the way from day one to today. He's one of those guys about whom people usually say "he never plays something the same way twice", but he literally never plays something twice. You can download 20 versions of the same song and they all will be different (yes, I tried it). Mark's always improvising, and it's one of my favourite parts about his playing.

And improvisation is nothing but playing around patterns and sounds you've learned previously, so there's no such thing as true, genuine improvisation, i.e. playing from scratch, so the argument that Mark pre-learned every solo is not especially valid. You learn and play things to death in order to improvise, it's how it works!

I disagree about Mark's ability in improvisation

to me Mark is a great melodist, a great composer in instrumental sections, but not very good in improvisation
For example, Sultans versions on last tours when he tried to "improvise" were not the best ones imho. his solos went to nowhere

his best instrumental parts in his career are the ones tha he composed imho, not the ones he improvised

[quizzaciously]

I disagree about Mark's ability in improvisation

to me Mark is a great melodist, a great composer in instrumental sections, but not very good in improvisation
For example, Sultans versions on last tours when he tried to "improvise" were not the best ones imho. his solos went to nowhere

his best instrumental parts in his career are the ones tha he composed imho, not the ones he improvised

It's unfair to talk about recent MK as he's clearly on the decline when it comes to playing live, soloing-wise or singing-wise, it's understandable due to ageing. But even then, each time he plays "Song For Sonny Liston" it's always different. Always! Every single time. And it always astonishes me.

He's as good at improvising as he's as good at singing. Meaning, there are thousands and thousands of people who do it better, but man, does it suit his songs!

[dustyvalentino]

Overall you can't say that On The Night is ridiculously bad as there's nothing ridiculous or bad there.

I can and I did! The clothes are fine but MK's hair was ridiculous as well by this stage.

But you are clearly in the minority here, and a very small minority, I must admit. I remember some people complaining about "questionable" 90s clothes choices on On The Night, but hair? No way! So you seem to have a gripe with this recording, and if you don't like something, you will find evidence to support your disapproval of it and vice versa. Just like I can find a million ways to defend it, you can find a million ways to destroy it. That's called personal preference, I suppose.

To me, ridiculous and bad means that something is obviously altered like a guy playing an instrument on video before or after its sound would come on, or overdubbing the sound that would not belong to the record like photoshopping something really badly, or straight up leaving major mistakes or noises where they shouldn't have been.

But all the rest is like make-up and women. I can't stand any excessive make-up, alteration to lips size or other body parts, etc. because to me it's always especially obvious and unnatural. Some people like it! But not me. And to me, On The Night is a fine girl with some decent make-up, it's definitely not a Barbie puppet as you're describing it.

On The Night = https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lipstick_on_a_pig

PS I don't know if I'm in the minority - I haven't added up the people for and against on this thread but there are a few people who are disappointed overall by OTN. In terms of it being ridiculously bad, that comment was in relation to the video editing. The discussion has widened to encompass the flaws in the audio. I wouldn't say the audio is ridiculously bad but it's certainly not good, and having numerous soundboard bootlegs available from the same run of shows to directly compare to doesn't do it any favours.

[dustyvalentino]

"MK's hair in this era in no way looks ridiculous"

10AB10DC-E130-4161-B12F-C4DD8F82403F by Dusty Valentino, on Flickr

[Knut]

I don't actively dislike OTN, but I'd much rather see a full show with some flaws than what we actually got in the end.

I'll give Mark some points for improvisations here and there, regardless of which tour we're talking about, but I've never had the feeling he has played for the audience. It's more like "this is my job, it's what I do"-standard set - on to the next town. So, I end up listening to the first show in Dublin more often than most others, because it actually has that rare "we're playing for you guys tonight"-feel, with some rarities in the setlist.

When even the speeches are the same and mostly just bollocks anyway (Walk of life and Heavy fuel come to mind), it's kind of a turn off. It's like saying "you're the cutest ever" to all the girls you meet.

[Pierre]

As for me, I think I was too young to pay attention to production etc.. when I first listened to On The Night, 14 or 15 I was, so it blew my mind. Plus the video was really the first I saw of any Dire Straits footage so double punch I'd say.

I loved you and your friend studio version and when I realised a live version existed I couldn't wait to get my hand on that cd. I must have played it a thousand times.
Years later I'm able to find flaws in this live CD but it will always be the record I used to put on random to wake me up back then before taking myself to school.
I remember clearly once of dreaming of playing Romeo sax intro on a guitar in front of a furious crowd, in fact the CD had started playing but hadn't woken me up and the music slid into my dream. One of the best dream I had.

So ridiculous I don't think so but I can see what you're thinking.
I just think MK was bored and it feels

Now I don't listen to it much I prefer listening to fan made versions on youtube or soundboard bootlegs, but it's not my favourite dire straits live period anyway, now I'm more into MK solo career.

[quizzaciously]

On The Night = https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lipstick_on_a_pig

PS I don't know if I'm in the minority - I haven't added up the people for and against on this thread but there are a few people who are disappointed overall by OTN. In terms of it being ridiculously bad, that comment was in relation to the video editing. The discussion has widened to encompass the flaws in the audio. I wouldn't say the audio is ridiculously bad but it's certainly not good, and having numerous soundboard bootlegs available from the same run of shows to directly compare to doesn't do it any favours.

Bad editing of live shows to me involves things like showing something different while the solo is being played. Like sometimes you can see videos where somebody's playing a smoking solo and they show a rhythm guitar player. Or having too many cuts, that's another example of bad editing. I can't see either of that in On The Night... If somebody's having a solo, they show it. Even for something like little saxophone lines in The Bug, they would show Chris White for a brief moment. Every important thing is on the video, so what is so "bad" about it apart from it being stitched from different venues?

Also, keep in mind the trouble they had to go through by actually stitching multiple shows together, I think it's not as easy as it sounds. After this thread, I think what's really ridiculously bad is that they could actually release Basel and other professionally recorded shows officially on their own. Imagine the whole Basel show released officially? It's still astonishing to me that the Basel show is merely a bootleg. So basically they can release all complete shows and earn tons of money. But they will not do it probably because all the masters are lost forever and chilling in a junkyard somewhere.