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Author Topic: High praise album review - german  (Read 17436 times)

Offline2manyguitars

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Re: High praise album review - german
« Reply #30 on: November 12, 2018, 10:59:29 PM »
I actually think trapper man is an interesting song with an interesting concept at heart, the idea of a guy who does all our dirty work so we don't have to is intriguing, all thrown in with a healthy dose of knopfler sarcasm and cynicism. So yes, I would put it forward as an example of  good mk song with plenty of depth....

hunter

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Re: High praise album review - german
« Reply #31 on: November 12, 2018, 11:02:45 PM »
I know it's only my opinion, but if the song's purpose is pure entertainment (like Nobody Does That or Trapper Man) I can't seriously call it a great song.

Oh, please. Mark has several great songs that are pure entertainment. I'd even say very few of his songs, great and not so great, are not pure entertainment.

Love Expresso

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Re: High praise album review - german
« Reply #32 on: November 12, 2018, 11:08:00 PM »
Basil and Laugh & Jokes touched me very emotional, Heart of Oak did or Get Lucky. I have the feeling these songs needed a long time to mature which gave them depth and quality. Nowadays I often think that he too easy makes simple ideas into songs. One word, three notes in a row that sound good and make an idea, and there you go, a song is written. I imagine the melody line in Nobody's  Child.. "to ramble wild" was the first idea. The idea is there, the picture, desert, sad, and in no time Mark creates this song. Without any depth.  Without maturation. Because that's what he does all day. Like a habit.

This is an example to show what I mean. I have this feeling with many of the new material. Quizzaciously had a similiar theory about Just A Boy and that it started backwards from the melody of YNWA.

Not one single song so far touched me the described way. Maybe One Song At A Time and Drover's Road. The rest to me seems ... superficial and flat.

Get Lucky is full of songs that, every single one, compared to all these new ones, really appeal to me as "masterpieces" apart from You Can't Beat The House.

This is no moaning by the way. This is observation after 33 years of being Hardcore MK fan on a daily base. One must be allowed to say that his work loses quality more and more.

Maybe I will be surprised by the Local Hero thing, something I have absolutely no interest in. Maybe those songs are better. I don't know.

LE


Offlinequizzaciously

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Re: High praise album review - german
« Reply #33 on: November 12, 2018, 11:12:41 PM »
Basil and Laugh & Jokes touched me very emotional, Heart of Oak did or Get Lucky. I have the feeling these songs needed a long time to mature which gave them depth and quality. Nowadays I often think that he too easy makes simple ideas into songs. One word, three notes in a row that sound good and make an idea, and there you go, a song is written. I imagine the melody line in Nobody's  Child.. "to ramble wild" was the first idea. The idea is there, the picture, desert, sad, and in no time Mark creates this song. Without any depth.  Without maturation. Because that's what he does all day. Like a habit.

This is an example to show what I mean. I have this feeling with many of the new material. Quizzaciously had a similiar theory about Just A Boy and that it started backwards from the melody of YNWA.

Not one single song so far touched me the described way. Maybe One Song At A Time and Drover's Road. The rest to me seems ... superficial and flat.

Get Lucky is full of songs that, every single one, compared to all these new ones, really appeal to me as "masterpieces" apart from You Can't Beat The House.

This is no moaning by the way. This is observation after 33 years of being Hardcore MK fan on a daily base. One must be allowed to say that his work loses quality more and more.

Maybe I will be surprised by the Local Hero thing, something I have absolutely no interest in. Maybe those songs are better. I don't know.

LE

Yes, oh yes. The feeling that the song took 1 hour to write is the theme for this album. It's very hard to describe the "flatness" :(
The most controversial Mark's album for sure — absolute praise on the one side and complete frustration on the other. Go figure.

* Half of the album, yes. But I honestly don't think something will drastically change after the big day.

Offline2manyguitars

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Re: High praise album review - german
« Reply #34 on: November 12, 2018, 11:16:39 PM »
Guys, these are Huge assumptions about process without any evidence. How do you know how the songs were constructed? I know you don't like it and that's fine, but at least give some benefit of the doubt to the hard work that has gone into these new songs. Sometimes the best song can take 10 minutes to write, other times it can take years....

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Re: High praise album review - german
« Reply #35 on: November 12, 2018, 11:19:15 PM »
Of course we don't know  that's why I called it a theory. It was used to describe the feeling the new songs gave me. I know for sure that it took them three years to make this album. My expectations were high.

LE

Offline2manyguitars

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Re: High praise album review - german
« Reply #36 on: November 12, 2018, 11:23:17 PM »
Of course we don't know  that's why I called it a theory. It was used to describe the feeling the new songs gave me. I know for sure that it took them three years to make this album. My expectations were high.

LE

Yes but even saying it sounds like it was written in 5 minutes on the back of a matchbox is slightly disrespectful don't you think? why not just say it sounds flat, or I don't like it, rather than implying some sort of laziness on behalf of the artist? Its a little bit unfair in my eyes....

No disrespect meant!....lol

OfflineKnopflerfan

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Re: High praise album review - german
« Reply #37 on: November 12, 2018, 11:29:08 PM »
Basil and Laugh & Jokes touched me very emotional, Heart of Oak did or Get Lucky. I have the feeling these songs needed a long time to mature which gave them depth and quality. Nowadays I often think that he too easy makes simple ideas into songs. One word, three notes in a row that sound good and make an idea, and there you go, a song is written. I imagine the melody line in Nobody's  Child.. "to ramble wild" was the first idea. The idea is there, the picture, desert, sad, and in no time Mark creates this song. Without any depth.  Without maturation. Because that's what he does all day. Like a habit.

This is an example to show what I mean. I have this feeling with many of the new material. Quizzaciously had a similiar theory about Just A Boy and that it started backwards from the melody of YNWA.

Not one single song so far touched me the described way. Maybe One Song At A Time and Drover's Road. The rest to me seems ... superficial and flat.

Get Lucky is full of songs that, every single one, compared to all these new ones, really appeal to me as "masterpieces" apart from You Can't Beat The House.

This is no moaning by the way. This is observation after 33 years of being Hardcore MK fan on a daily base. One must be allowed to say that his work loses quality more and more.

Maybe I will be surprised by the Local Hero thing, something I have absolutely no interest in. Maybe those songs are better. I don't know.

LE

Yes, oh yes. The feeling that the song took 1 hour to write is the theme for this album. It's very hard to describe the "flatness" :(
The most controversial Mark's album for sure — absolute praise on the one side and complete frustration on the other. Go figure.

* Half of the album, yes. But I honestly don't think something will drastically change after the big day.

Erm, How is this album controversial? Again not a lot of respect to MK forthcoming of note for this album..
* Mark Knopfler - NOT just a hobby, but a way of life!

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hunter

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Re: High praise album review - german
« Reply #38 on: November 12, 2018, 11:32:14 PM »
I have to say I really enjoy some of these simpler songs, simpler meaning "less words". It gets closer to poetry. Is a good poem easier to write than a good piece of prose just because the poem has less words?

Offlinequizzaciously

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Re: High praise album review - german
« Reply #39 on: November 12, 2018, 11:32:54 PM »
Guys, these are Huge assumptions about process without any evidence. How do you know how the songs were constructed? I know you don't like it and that's fine, but at least give some benefit of the doubt to the hard work that has gone into these new songs. Sometimes the best song can take 10 minutes to write, other times it can take years....

Thank you for asking good questions instead of just saying that we're fools and can't understand a thing like some people here do.

I dissect every Mark's song from a guitar player's perspective and while I transcribe the songs it gives me a chance to read all the lyrics as well and for instance notice the word "bro" in one of the songs among other things. All the little details. Not so little details — copy and paste. For some songs I literally just copy and paste most of the chords and that's it. It's very easy to transcribe the song, takes 5 minutes, it's easy to listen to it, takes 5 minutes, it's easy to understand it, takes 5 minutes. Too easy. And it's actually too easy to forget it completely.

This is what I call flatness of the song — it doesn't challenge you. Have an intro, repeat a little idea, then have one verse, second verse, chorus, have a solo, then third verse, got to have a middle section, that's fine. Finish with one other verse and loop the solo over the intro's harmony. That's the formula. I know as a fact that "Walk Of Life" was written by Mark very quickly. The song ended up being a hit, so sometimes it really works.

But from what I can see most of the songs from the new album are as easy as the song can be. So naturally you can come to the conclusion that it was written fast as well. But there's Mark's songs that are carefully crafted, many of songs like that and you can almost fell it took a very long time to write. And that's exactly the type of songs people are usually refer to as "masterpieces". No wonder why it happens, but certainly there's no too much "masterpieces" on the new album.

OfflineEddie Fox

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Re: High praise album review - german
« Reply #40 on: November 12, 2018, 11:38:54 PM »
But then it’s just your opinion. I don’t see it that way, quite the opposite actually since I like very much almost every song from this album. Perhaps you’d have chosen other songs Mark had at his disposal if it was up to you to do so but he had other things in mind and whether you like it or not most people are happy with his choices.

So you literally like everything? Every song? How could it be? I feel very happy for you, because I can't say so about all the new ones.

I consider myself a pretty hardcore fan in that respect, I even teach Mark's songs on YouTube, because I think he has almost no skippers, and it's the only artist you can actually analyse most of his songs. Not Paul Simon, not Paul McCartney, not even Bob Dylan. But for some songs from the new album I don't even know what to analyse and what to say, I'm stunned. It's the kind of songs you can ask Mark "Do you have something else?" as he used to joke in interviews. But now there's no time for jokes it seems. It gets serious.

I know it's only my opinion, but if the song's purpose is pure entertainment (like Nobody Does That or Trapper Man) I can't seriously call it a great song. Yes, it attracts people and good for radio maybe, but is it what we love MK for? As LE said, would you recommend Trapper Man to a friend to showcase Mark's outstanding songwriting craft? I'm certainly not going to do that.

Yes, I would, I love that song actually. Floating Away and Drover’s road not so much, so it’s not every song.

As I said before, I really don’t mind your ‘moaning’ (don’t think it’s moaning btw) but when you say Mark just threw a bunch of songs on the table and picked some of them randomly to record as if it was a fact it does start to bother me. You see, it probably took him quite sometime to decide which songs to work on and I’m sure he chose the ones he liked best so let’s respect it.

Again, I’m totally on your side when it comes to free speech but making those kinds of assumptions isn’t free speech, that’s belittling Mark’s and everyone else who likes the new album’s taste and that I do not support, I’m sorry.
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OfflineKnopflerfan

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Re: High praise album review - german
« Reply #41 on: November 12, 2018, 11:45:34 PM »
But then it’s just your opinion. I don’t see it that way, quite the opposite actually since I like very much almost every song from this album. Perhaps you’d have chosen other songs Mark had at his disposal if it was up to you to do so but he had other things in mind and whether you like it or not most people are happy with his choices.

So you literally like everything? Every song? How could it be? I feel very happy for you, because I can't say so about all the new ones.

I consider myself a pretty hardcore fan in that respect, I even teach Mark's songs on YouTube, because I think he has almost no skippers, and it's the only artist you can actually analyse most of his songs. Not Paul Simon, not Paul McCartney, not even Bob Dylan. But for some songs from the new album I don't even know what to analyse and what to say, I'm stunned. It's the kind of songs you can ask Mark "Do you have something else?" as he used to joke in interviews. But now there's no time for jokes it seems. It gets serious.

I know it's only my opinion, but if the song's purpose is pure entertainment (like Nobody Does That or Trapper Man) I can't seriously call it a great song. Yes, it attracts people and good for radio maybe, but is it what we love MK for? As LE said, would you recommend Trapper Man to a friend to showcase Mark's outstanding songwriting craft? I'm certainly not going to do that.

Yes, I would, I love that song actually. Floating Away and Drover’s road not so much, so it’s not every song.

As I said before, I really don’t mind your ‘moaning’ (don’t think it’s moaning btw) but when you say Mark just threw a bunch of songs on the table and picked some of them randomly to record as if it was a fact it does start to bother me. You see, it probably took him quite sometime to decide which songs to work on and I’m sure he chose the ones he liked best so let’s respect it.

Again, I’m totally on your side when it comes to free speech but making those kinds of assumptions isn’t free speech, that’s belittling Mark’s and everyone else who likes the new album’s taste and that I do not support, I’m sorry.

100% agree with your comments Eddie.
Free speech I'm all for. At the end of the day we are all 'hardcore' MK fans on here (30+ years myself) - MK is a way of life for me, ask my wife and friends!!! so we will all have expectations etc and yes agreed some will like songs more than others but in all this particular album is really rather special.... The depth of some of the lyrics are deep and are up to the usual MK standard. We have had to explain some meanings for those that do not understand some of the lyrics because they are so clever....

Roll on Friday is all I can say.....

Respect each other
« Last Edit: November 12, 2018, 11:47:45 PM by Knopflerfan »
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Offline2manyguitars

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Re: High praise album review - german
« Reply #42 on: November 12, 2018, 11:48:52 PM »
Guys, these are Huge assumptions about process without any evidence. How do you know how the songs were constructed? I know you don't like it and that's fine, but at least give some benefit of the doubt to the hard work that has gone into these new songs. Sometimes the best song can take 10 minutes to write, other times it can take years....

Thank you for asking good questions instead of just saying that we're fools and can't understand a thing like some people here do.

I dissect every Mark's song from a guitar player's perspective and while I transcribe the songs it gives me a chance to read all the lyrics as well and for instance notice the word "bro" in one of the songs among other things. All the little details. Not so little details — copy and paste. For some songs I literally just copy and paste most of the chords and that's it. It's very easy to transcribe the song, takes 5 minutes, it's easy to listen to it, takes 5 minutes, it's easy to understand it, takes 5 minutes. Too easy. And it's actually too easy to forget it completely.

This is what I call flatness of the song — it doesn't challenge you. Have an intro, repeat a little idea, then have one verse, second verse, chorus, have a solo, then third verse, got to have a middle section, that's fine. Finish with one other verse and loop the solo over the intro's harmony. That's the formula. I know as a fact that "Walk Of Life" was written by Mark very quickly. The song ended up being a hit, so sometimes it really works.

But from what I can see most of the songs from the new album are as easy as the song can be. So naturally you can come to the conclusion that it was written fast as well. But there's Mark's songs that are carefully crafted, many of songs like that and you can almost fell it took a very long time to write. And that's exactly the type of songs people are usually refer to as "masterpieces". No wonder why it happens, but certainly there's no too much "masterpieces" on the new album.

I don't disagree regarding the simplicity of much of the album we have heard so far, but you could argue that mark has been striving for this for years. Simple doesn't equal bad and speaking as a songwriter and music teacher myself I know that I can write something in 5 minutes that (dressed up with the right production and a half decent solo) can take on a life of its own for years to come...

The relationship between listener, artist, time, age, and circumstance is a fascinating one. Perhaps this is why we on here have such a hard time reconciling with the negative opinions.

OfflineRobson

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Re: High praise album review - german
« Reply #43 on: November 12, 2018, 11:49:17 PM »
Guys, these are Huge assumptions about process without any evidence. How do you know how the songs were constructed? I know you don't like it and that's fine, but at least give some benefit of the doubt to the hard work that has gone into these new songs. Sometimes the best song can take 10 minutes to write, other times it can take years....

Thank you for asking good questions instead of just saying that we're fools and can't understand a thing like some people here do.

I dissect every Mark's song from a guitar player's perspective and while I transcribe the songs it gives me a chance to read all the lyrics as well and for instance notice the word "bro" in one of the songs among other things. All the little details. Not so little details — copy and paste. For some songs I literally just copy and paste most of the chords and that's it. It's very easy to transcribe the song, takes 5 minutes, it's easy to listen to it, takes 5 minutes, it's easy to understand it, takes 5 minutes. Too easy. And it's actually too easy to forget it completely.

This is what I call flatness of the song — it doesn't challenge you. Have an intro, repeat a little idea, then have one verse, second verse, chorus, have a solo, then third verse, got to have a middle section, that's fine. Finish with one other verse and loop the solo over the intro's harmony. That's the formula. I know as a fact that "Walk Of Life" was written by Mark very quickly. The song ended up being a hit, so sometimes it really works.

But from what I can see most of the songs from the new album are as easy as the song can be. So naturally you can come to the conclusion that it was written fast as well. But there's Mark's songs that are carefully crafted, many of songs like that and you can almost fell it took a very long time to write. And that's exactly the type of songs people are usually refer to as "masterpieces". No wonder why it happens, but certainly there's no too much "masterpieces" on the new album.

You're a musician. You analyze a lot. Music is not mathematics. Let's wait another four days.
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Re: High praise album review - german
« Reply #44 on: November 12, 2018, 11:53:02 PM »
Of course we don't know  that's why I called it a theory. It was used to describe the feeling the new songs gave me. I know for sure that it took them three years to make this album. My expectations were high.

LE

Yes but even saying it sounds like it was written in 5 minutes on the back of a matchbox is slightly disrespectful don't you think? why not just say it sounds flat, or I don't like it, rather than implying some sort of laziness on behalf of the artist? Its a little bit unfair in my eyes....

No disrespect meant!....lol

Because it's exactly what I wanted to say. That it sounds AS IF most of the songs  were written very much faster and without the same care or amount of time than on earlier albums. On the writing process. Guy obviously took immense effort in polishing them later. Speaking of polish...

And...
You are implying laziness, not me. I never spoke about laziness but a new approach to songwriting.  The same with your 5 minute matchbox thing. Never said or meant that. I would call THAT unfair in a discussion.

LE

 

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