3 Chord Trick (Legacy)

[Jules]

About twisting...

Did any of you noticed the DS and MK songs references in the song " twisting the knife"?

Obviously there are two in the title. In the lyrics there are mentions to DS's Telegraph Road and to two music score songs, "happy ending" and "as low as it gets"

[Eddie Fox]

I'm glad you are appreciating my work. It's difficult being slightly aggressive. Being fully aggressive just isn't the British way you see and everybody loves a bit of aggression, but just a slight amount.

I’m brazilian, brazilians know how to handle aggression pretty well. I personally have to deal with aggression all the time in my line of work. Piece of cake.

[Eddie Fox]

About twisting...

Did any of you noticed the DS and MK songs references in the song " twisting the knife"?

Obviously there are two in the title. In the lyrics there are mentions to DS's Telegraph Road and to two music score songs, "happy ending" and "as low as it gets"

Not really. Didn’t pay too much attention to any lyrics apart from 3 chord trick to be honest... what does it say?

Talking about 3 chord trick, I was wondering if the title isn’t a direct reference to the sultans of swing main riff. It has three chords and is all Mark needs to bring the house down. Makes sense?

[ds1984]

Alan worked a lot for Tina as musical director and played on the Break Every Rules TV show recorded live for HBO at Camden Palace in 1987.  You can also hear him play with EC. These are clues about what Alan can bring to artist outside DS.

[JF]

If Alan didn't "compose" the piano intro for Romeo & Juliet, do you think he would have been "allowed" to play it as intro for Layla on EC's tour ?
On the oldifield book (a book that has been approved by the band and MK) it is written that during the OL tour, Alan had to re-arrange old songs, and to arrange new songs with only one keyboard player, while studio versions contains several keyboard parts. And of course "building" Telegraph road.

Of course the line between "arrangements" and "composition" is tiny, so it's always difficult to determine if a musician had a "big" part in a song or not.

"Money" or "another brick in the wall part 2" are credited only by Waters. but on both songs, the guitar solos are not only "solos", imho, they are "melodies" of the song that almost all people who know the songs can sing. Should we consider these parts as "composed" elements, or only musicians "contributions" ? I must admit I don't have the answer.
Is a song only a melody and a chord progression ? or should we take all arangements (tempos, rhythm pattern, sounds, instruments...) as "parts" of the composition ?. I don't think the answer can be always clear and simple

I think that if you name the song "baker street", you will immediately hear the saxophone theme. But was the saxophonist credited for "composing" the song ? I don't think so. Should he have been credited ?

I think Alan had a "big" part. I don't know how much it can be named as "contribution" or "composition"

Funnily, when the person involved is famous, then all come with lawerrs : Sting is credited for MFN, just for a melody line, but as Dusty said, maybe that Guy had a bigger role in the song...

another example : songs credited by lennon-McCartney... we all know that after 65-66, it wasn't the case. and "revolution 9" was done by John, Yoko and George, but is credited to Lennon-McCartney !

so yes, I think we will never know for sure

[Jules]

And there are bands like Led Zeppelin, Toto etc etc that credit all the musicians that had any input in the songs. If the bass player or the drummer added lines or grooves created by them while arranging, they get their credit.

In other bands it happens the same but the only one who gets the credit is the one who wrote the song, even the bassist, the keyboardist or the drummer came during the recording with anything important.

In Pink Floyd, to play a great solo, that probably comes from Gilmour's 100% didn't get him credit, but if he came with guitar riffs that were key in the song he got his credit, something like "music by Gilmour, lyrics by Waters". I wonder if Richard Wright add his keyboard parts from his own without being credited...

Why is Guy not credited by having the idea of the MFN intro and probably create that intro, but Sting is, just because the "I want my mtv" melody sounded similar to "don't stand so close to me" by The Police? Probably as JF says, because Sting had a manager who insisted and a lawyer behind. And, probably Guy thought that it didn't worth to ask for credit and loose the job, as probably most of the sessions musicians would think when it comes to add his parts without being credited.

I recall Guy said once in his forum that "create your parts and add them to the songs is part of the job for what you are paid for". Well, true, but go back to the Led Zeppelin or Toto examples...

It's a thin line, yes.

[dustyvalentino]

In the Stones Jagger and Richards insisted on writing credits even when they had nothing to do with the song! Wyman and Wood have confirmed this!

With regards to the song title, I think we can read too much into it, probably just a play on Three Card Trick

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-card_Monte

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[JF]

Yes and Taylor wasn't credited for songs he claimed having brought an important part : "sway" (Richards don't even play on it !), "time waits for no one" and "wild horses"
He was credited for ventilator blues only

for band giving credits to all musicians, it is often the case at the start and then it changes on next albums

for example, Genesis did this on their firsts albums, and you have the paradox of the instrumental "horizons" (on Foxtrot 1972) credited for all band members, while it is obvioulsly composed only by Hackett. Imagine, all times Hackett plays his tune in concert, he has to pay all other ex-Genesis members ?!!

After Gabriel's departure, "the trick of the tail" was the first album with musicians names credits

[JF]

In Pink Floyd, to play a great solo, that probably comes from Gilmour's 100% didn't get him credit, but if he came with guitar riffs that were key in the song he got his credit, something like "music by Gilmour, lyrics by Waters". I wonder if Richard Wright add his keyboard parts from his own without being credited...

Comfortably numb is credited : lyrics Waters, music Waters and Gilmour, but Gilmour claimed that music was only him (he did a demo for his 1978 solo album)
Richard was credited on many songs, so I guess that all of his inputs were credited (shine on ,echoes, time, etc...)

but imho, Gilour's contrubtion in songs like Money or another brick part 1 &2, are as importants as on others songs

i'd say that these songs are famous, mostly for his contributions, equally as the song melody

I know it can't be a proof, but I would say that what makes a song "famous" (intro, outro, instrumental part, riff, melody line, etc..) should be considered as an "important" part of the song, and the guy who brought this idea should be "considered" as co-creator of the song, but of course it's very difficult to determine what is "important" in a song

[dustyvalentino]

So this is all very interesting and I'm not trying to downplay the contributions that other musicians have made to MK's songs over the years but really most of the "hooks" have been guitar or lyrically based.

What I WOULD be interested to know is this:

Who wrote the keyboard melodies on Walk of Life and Industrial Disease? Because if it wasn't MK then whoever it was should get a writing credit...

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[Robson]

"So this is all very interesting and I'm not trying to downplay the contributions that other musicians have made to MK's songs over the years but really most of the "hooks" have been guitar or lyrically based..."

Exactly. That is why some MK songs need, for example, a violin and some flutes.

[Robson]

and others just need a guitar, bass, percussion

[Jules]

In Pink Floyd, to play a great solo, that probably comes from Gilmour's 100% didn't get him credit, but if he came with guitar riffs that were key in the song he got his credit, something like "music by Gilmour, lyrics by Waters". I wonder if Richard Wright add his keyboard parts from his own without being credited...

Comfortably numb is credited : lyrics Waters, music Waters and Gilmour, but Gilmour claimed that music was only him (he did a demo for his 1978 solo album)
Richard was credited on many songs, so I guess that all of his inputs were credited (shine on ,echoes, time, etc...)

but imho, Gilour's contrubtion in songs like Money or another brick part 1 &2, are as importants as on others songs

i'd say that these songs are famous, mostly for his contributions, equally as the song melody

I know it can't be a proof, but I would say that what makes a song "famous" (intro, outro, instrumental part, riff, melody line, etc..) should be considered as an "important" part of the song, and the guy who brought this idea should be "considered" as co-creator of the song, but of course it's very difficult to determine what is "important" in a song

Exactly, that's why I don't agree with Guy's statement that musicians are paid not only to play but also add whatever the song needed. If you play something that is created by you, even under guidelines from the author of the song, you should be credited because the song is a whole, not only the lyrics and the basic rythmic track.

But when it comes to professional musicians, I guess they don't mind very much about it, but when you are in a band, like Dire Straits was, others members contributions should had been credited. Pick grooves were also important and a trademark of those DS early days, Alan arrangements from LOG onwards and live, Guy deserved to be credited in MFN more than Sting, as already mentioned etc etc. At least in the OES record Alan and Guy managed to be credited, just as producers, not composers, but something is something.

Again, it's a thin line. MK was the genius that wrote the songs, but it looks logical to think that other helped him to put clothes on the naked body of the songs. We don't know how much input are from the others, really, and probably we won't know.

[Jules]

So this is all very interesting and I'm not trying to downplay the contributions that other musicians have made to MK's songs over the years but really most of the "hooks" have been guitar or lyrically based.

What I WOULD be interested to know is this:

Who wrote the keyboard melodies on Walk of Life and Industrial Disease? Because if it wasn't MK then whoever it was should get a writing credit...

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Or Guy with the MFN intro...

[dustyvalentino]

See, I love the intro, but I don't think that's why it was a hit. It was a hit because of the riff and the lyrics.

Walk of Life I would argue was a hit because of the keyboard line...

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