In The Sky — Acoustic Guitar Part?

[quizzaciously]

So It turned out asking Guy Fletcher something is a complete waste of time, from my two attempts of asking the damn question, he answered he "DON'T BELIEVE" there was an open tuning guitar in the song, as if he wasn't recording it at all. Why his forum even exist? I thought you can get answers at least on the technical side of things, but it's as if his guesses are as good as mine. And my first question... he just ignored it! I'll NEVER EVER ask something on his forum again. You can call it boycott.

From time to time I return to this song and I still can't play it. Obviously, the tuning is odd, Mark plays it in full right in the last stroke. Official sheet music says simply — Drop D tuning, capo 3rd fret. It's obvious and it works fine, until the chorus begins and it sounds really bad with the Drop D. I'm aware about the quality of these books, so it can be something else.

I tried Open G tuning and right away it sounds much better (thanks for "confirmation" Guy!). And even the chorus sounds better, but there's a problem again. I can't get this vibrato AND the rhythm at the same time, I just can't. If you listen closely, you can hear vibrato notes being played simultaneously with some other strings, the part goes all over the place. Especially towards the end of the song. And how you can play the second chord of the chorus if there's no open tuning I have no clue whatsoever. And since I have the same exact model of guitar the song was recorded with (Gibson Advanced Jumbo), I can tell the vibrato notes are not in the 7th position, I think it's more like the 2nd position.

My problem is, either the vibrato sounds good and the rhythm goes bad, or vice versa. On Guy's forum he said about overdubbing something for the song, but stated that it's still one track (what?). So I can't believe Guy, I can't believe official book and I can't believe myself. Every time I sit down to learn the song, I end up with nothing. I can get it to sound quite close, but quite isn't enough and I just leave it alone. And now Guy can't say a thing about it. What's happening? I never thought I'd ever get stuck in transcribing something

And each day I think that I respect Guy as a musician, but as a man he's such a fishy person... Looking forward only, no EQ on Tracker, best album ever, happy microphones, happy smell of tape... Oh... I'm done with Guy. Either the recording was altered in some way, or I can't hear anything or something's wrong, I don't know. Bottom line — I can't play it.

[dmg]

There are a few reasons I have never bothered to join his forum all these years and your experience confirms I have been right to do so, or not to do so...whatever.   

These reasons, if anyone is interested:

I feel uncomfortable asking Guy about Mark related topics all the time.
I always speak my mind and feel that this would result in none of my posts making it onto the forum!
Sometimes he can be rude by ignoring people.
He discloses so little (sometimes understandably) that I would hardly ever take the opportunity to post there anyway.

[Love Expresso]

I totally understand your frustration. To me, In The Sky is also an endless source of frustration but lyrically wise. Never really got worked it out. As I have not the slightest idea about chords and tabs and the only capo I know us from the Godfather, I cannot help you. But it is somewhat nice to see that there is at least ONE Knopfler song that makes you go crazy.  You would seem too much as a super music mutant in the other case. Don't be too hard on yourself. And to be fair I found Guy's answer not too rude, by pure number of words he wrote... ;-)

LE

[quizzaciously]

I totally understand your frustration. To me, In The Sky is also an endless source of frustration but lyrically wise. Never really got worked it out. As I have not the slightest idea about chords and tabs and the only capo I know us from the Godfather, I cannot help you. But it is somewhat nice to see that there is at least ONE Knopfler song that makes you go crazy.  You would seem too much as a super music mutant in the other case. Don't be too hard on yourself. And to be fair I found Guy's answer not too rude, by pure number of words he wrote... ;-)

LE

Almost every song gives me a great deal of frustration when I pick it out. I thought Privateering would be impossible, but I did it, and songs like Je Suis Désolé gives me a lot of hard times. But usually no more than a couple of weeks. With In The Sky, I can't come to a conclusion and say "this is it" for months, because there's too many trade-offs... One day you think you got it, but then realise no, it can be that way. And here comes Guy basically saying "I don't know". Okay, no open tuned instruments, I get it. But what tuned instruments? Maybe one day I'll get it... Good luck with getting the lyrics, LE!

P.S. Godfather bit was awesome

[Eddie Fox]

Guy has become an endless source of vagueness.

[JF]

"I don't believe" doesn't mean he is 100% sure
I think that even Guy can't rememeber excatly 100% accurate what was going on in studio for all recodings he made. It's impossible, and I don't think that all is writtent and archivied.
So it's only his memory. Don't take all of his answers as pure truth.
since I read in an itw Mark saying that trawlerman song was played on the 54 strat in studio, and we know it isn't, I don't always believe all that comes from answers by Guy. He can make mistakes, he is just human after all!

Anyway, could it be that the 2 different parts were recodings separately, but each one in one take ?

"one take" (I think it's what he means by "one track") doesn't mean all parts were recorded "live together"

of course I could be wrong too

[Eddie Fox]

"I don't believe" doesn't mean he is 100% sure
I think that even Guy can't rememeber excatly 100% accurate what was going on in studio for all recodings he made. It's impossible, and I don't think that all is writtent and archivied.
So it's only his memory. Don't take all of his answers as pure truth.
since I read in an itw Mark saying that trawlerman song was played on the 54 strat in studio, and we know it isn't, I don't always believe all that comes from answers by Guy. He can make mistakes, he is just human after all!

Anyway, could it be that the 2 different parts were recodings separately, but each one in one take ?

"one take" (I think it's what he means by "one track") doesn't mean all parts were recorded "live together"

of course I could be wrong too

When he talked about Trawlerman Song was he referring to rhythm or lead?

Regarding one take recordings I'm 99.9% sure it means live in the studio. That being said, In The Sky would not fit in that category since there are obvious overdubs - Mark's the only guitarist featured on the album and you can hear both eletric and accoustic very clearly on the song.

To be honest I'm writing this and can't really remember if I'm talking about the same things you guys brought up lol shouldn't post after longer hours of studies.

[JF]

When he talked about Trawlerman Song was he referring to rhythm or lead?

Regarding one take recordings I'm 99.9% sure it means live in the studio. That being said, In The Sky would not fit in that category since there are obvious overdubs - Mark's the only guitarist featured on the album and you can hear both eletric and accoustic very clearly on the song.

To be honest I'm writing this and can't really remember if I'm talking about the same things you guys brought up lol shouldn't post after longer hours of studies.

there are only 2 guitars on trawlerman : Mark's lead on the LP58, and Richard's rhythm on Gibson Southerner (confirmed by Chuck Ainlay on Mknews). So no electric rhythm
http://www.mk-guitar.com/gear-on-all-songs-for-all-albums-wiki/gear-on-album-shangri-la/
Mark was refering to the lead but was wrong. Maybe he tested different guitars and among them there was the 54, and maybe that's the reason why he played it on the first leg of the tour in 2005


You can play "live in the studio" but releasing the 10th take on the album, and you can record tons of overdubbs, but each one being the 1st take (Page'solo on since I've been loving you is one take, but of course not live with other instruments)
So when Guy says "one track", I'm not sure what he is referring to, and moreover ten years after recorded it. How can he remember exactly all sessions he has done during his whole career ? it's impossible !
If we have so many infos about Beatles recordings for example, it's because EMI engineers wrote all and classified all. But are we sure that Chuck and Guy did the same ? Or is it just "from memory" ?
When I see that even Mark can remember wrong, I doubt that Guy would be the recordings bible...

[quizzaciously]

"I don't believe" doesn't mean he is 100% sure
I think that even Guy can't rememeber excatly 100% accurate what was going on in studio for all recodings he made. It's impossible, and I don't think that all is writtent and archivied.
So it's only his memory. Don't take all of his answers as pure truth.
since I read in an itw Mark saying that trawlerman song was played on the 54 strat in studio, and we know it isn't, I don't always believe all that comes from answers by Guy. He can make mistakes, he is just human after all!

Thanks for your take JF! Guy obviously can ask as many people as he want, Mark, Chuck, Glenn... In the old days he would ask Mark, like one guy asked him what books on guitar playing Mark would recommend and Guy posted Mark's answer. Imagine that today! No way! He would say something like "Just google it up, you pleb!". Seems like the more Guy overtakes a control over Mark's music (co-producer, engineer, photographer, musician, director, what else?) he becomes more and more of a "star". He doesn't need his forum anymore, like was stated before. Obvious, lazy answers and no delivering more than expected at all. Of course you always can explain it by having no time (almost anything can be explained that way though).

And my question is not about gear, like what guitar was used, my question is about the way the song was played. Tuning (or recording tricks for that matter) is a big deal and if there was recording tricks involved, I just waste my time trying to pick it out. If there was no any tricks and open tunings, Mark is a genius, concluded.

[quizzaciously]

In 2007 Guy said this: "Mark picked his Gibson Advanced Jumbo acoustic and it was for the most part, one take. We did however overdub the soloing towards the end as that wasn't played in the original pass. Definitely only one track though, no tricks."

One track, no tricks, but nothing about the tuning.

[quizzaciously]

That's why I hate when Mark records all the guitars for an album in the studio himself. The songs become harder to play live, harder to learn, but more lush for the ears. Thanks to Chuck, the guitar on In The Sky sounds better than I can even pick it live, but it adds nothing to learning experience.

[TheTimeWasWrong]

Honestly I think it's played with a capo on the 3rd fret and Drop D tuning. I don't have the official transcription but I believe the chorus is played in the 5th position (x5077x and xx577x), the top note (A) is definitely not played on the top E string, it sounds too thick for that string. We hear one acoustic guitar for sure but there might be some overdubbing, probably when Chris came to play the sax parts and they rerecorded some parts to make it more a dialog.

[quizzaciously]

Honestly I think it's played with a capo on the 3rd fret and Drop D tuning. I don't have the official transcription but I believe the chorus is played in the 5th position (x5077x and xx577x), the top note (A) is definitely not played on the top E string, it sounds too thick for that string. We hear one acoustic guitar for sure but there might be some overdubbing, probably when Chris came to play the sax parts and they rerecorded some parts to make it more a dialog.

Thanks for the input. This breaks my heart as I'm accustomed to the idea of Mark's songs always capable of being performed on one guitar only. The official transcription says obvious [00077x] and [5x077x] for the chorus, but right away I can tell this isn't something Mark could've played, it's too ugly. Let alone you can't get THAT amount of vibrato using your little finger with 6th string fretted at the same time even if you're Mark Knopfler.

Man, what a song to learn.

[quizzaciously]

My [another] big problem with a grip like [00077x] or [5x077x] is that if I use vibrato on those 77ths, it blocks the 4th string! In any tuning, wether it's Drop D or Open G. And you can clearly hear an open D on the record so apparently nothing stops Mark to vibrate those strings as he like.

[TheTimeWasWrong]

My [another] big problem with a grip like [00077x] or [5x077x] is that if I use vibrato on those 77ths, it blocks the 4th string! In any tuning, wether it's Drop D or Open G. And you can clearly hear an open D on the record so apparently nothing stops Mark to vibrate those strings as he like.

Try to vibrate those 77ths more towards the top E string than towards the 4th string, it's hard to let all those strings ring but it sure is possible. Besides his incredible right-hand technique, MK's left-hand vibrato is totally awesome and very hard to copy. It's not only the right intensity but also the timing, his vibrato (on one note) varies over time.