Ebay Thread

[sweetsurrender]

Sweetsurrender, I read his listing, and since he custom  makes these cars, you could actually get in touch with him and ask specificaly what you want!

Thanks, I may do just that.  I'll find time to reply to your PM.

[IrisRose]

Clever idea, though.

[vgonis]

These custom made objects have an appeal if they are made with gusto. Zippo lighters, badges, picks, even headphones, stuffed animals, scarfs, marbles etc, that all have something on to remind of the band. When they are made with care they are very nice, even though they are un official-and if they don't pay rights-illegal. Well pulling ethics on such matters...

[vgonis]

Even though this is not about ebay, I thought I should let you know about discogs (for those that don't already know it, anyway). It has a very nice database with unofficial recordings (and many of them available, in logical prices). And their official database is pretty good, and you can find many things in better prices than ebay.

http://www.discogs.com/artist/Dire+Straits#t=Unofficial_All&q=&p=1

http://www.discogs.com/artist/Dire+Straits

I use it both to buy and sell, and it is all about music. You can complete your collection!

[foma]

Another 'The Ragpicker's Dream' LP has arrived:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mark-Knopfler-Ragpickers-Dream-Limited-2LP-Dire-Straits-SEALED-Mercury-/150966395125?_trksid=p5197.m1992&_trkparms=aid%3D111000%26algo%3DREC.CURRENT%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D14%26meid%3D4242655089637584012%26pid%3D100015%26prg%3D1006%26rk%3D1%26sd%3D150966395125%26

[vgonis]

Hey FOMA, this one kinds of proves your point! Do you have the LP or are you looking for it?

[IrisRose]

vgonis, what do you mean by 'unofficial' recordings for sale?

[vgonis]

http://www.discogs.com/artist/Dire+Straits#t=Unofficial_All&q=&p=1

Bootlegs as a matter of fact! CDs and Vinyl. I Know that some AMITers do not like them to be sold,(I have rarely heard complaints about their existance though) but they are kind of fun for others and in the early, pre-napster days, they were the only way to get the music from a concert or the never released studio demos! Even now that it is obvious that they are done mainly for profit, some "companies" seem to put a great deal of love and care in the packaging and the aesthetics and some times the sound as well! Even though I can't afford most of them, I really treasure some of these unofficial releases very much and well, I must admit that I prefer them over the downloaded versions, because they have a physical presence, (sleeve, disc). And even though I know it is only a matter of perception, the fact that they are not readily available like torrents  and that you have to pay (I hate the fact that they usually cost so much) gives me a sense of a treasure hunt and have been enhancing my fan-ship for a great length of time.

[IrisRose]

That site must have been flying under the radar for all this time, then.   Selling bootlegs is really really really frowned upon, and not justs by amit.      That's the reason you can't find them on ebay any more.    Yes, they exist in great  numbers, but most have been traded.  Before trackers like ours, traders den and dime (which are strictly legit) people traded one on one, exchanging recordings or for b&p.   I started that way.    There is an honor in the trading community not to sell them.    I could be overstating to say they are illegal, but it is certainly considered unethical these days.   

[dmg]

The ethics of selling bootlegs is debatable yes, but realistically they (the bootleg sellers) are never going to be putting anyone out of business or doing any real harm in my opinion.  Maybe quite the reverse - read on...

I can remember many years ago going to CD and record fairs and buying many bootlegs.  Still have some.  Also, there are a couple of second-hand record shops I know where I can buy bootlegs (I think one has shut down now).  In these days it was virtually the only way I had of updating my collection because I had virtually nothing to trade and only just got the internet.  Tomas Molin was teasing me with lists of tantalising bootlegs and I just had to have them - like NOW!!

So I have my collection today partly thanks to buying bootlegs in the early days and I will be forever grateful because they brought me a great deal of pleasure before the arrival of torrents many, many years later.

[vgonis]

I like this conversations!    IrisRose, where do you stand on this? Do you share the view of the "trading community"? I mean if there is a set of ethics in this field, maybe there is something that I trully miss. We all know that these bootlegs are illegal, so you do not overstate in any way. But unethical? Why? If we accept the existence and trading of these bootlegs (mind you there is a physical object and not just the content) we actually on the same level with selling them. In the eyes of the law there is no difference if you make money or you receive other things in return (trading)  Because trading accepts the meaning of value, simply doesn't accept money as a trading tool. But in order for them to be produced a certain amount of money have to be spend (I don't think that the ones that print the CDs and covers accept copies or other kind of compensation) and the number of copies and the way to distribute them usually demands a more flexible system than the "trading community". This simply means that the mass produced physical bootlegs, should not exist at all!  But they do exist. I think we had this talk sometime back and we never reached a conclusion. It was a matter of opinion really. I really wish there weren't any, because these little devils have been the objects of my desire the last 23 years and they were pretty pricy too! (yes i have paid for the ones that I have...)
Last but not least I think that a bootleg recording is a recording that actually doesn't produce fees for the owners of rights  and/or taxes for the state. Even though I don't wish to even produce a ripple in the tranquil waters of torrents, if there is ever a legal case against these free sharing files  the whole arguement that MK allows these recordings, or has no objections, is as thin as the emperors new cloths!
I do get your point about money changing hands for such matters, but would it be OK if the amount was the price that it costs to produce? Ethics really deal with the actual act, but here money seems to be glued with it. It reminds me of the Argentinian movie  "9 queens". Two men have this talk about the boundaries of ethics. Someone asks the other if he would ever consider sleeping with a man for money. The other says NO. Well how about 100$? NO 1000$ NO. How about a cool million, no questions asked? The other starts thinking about it. And before he says anything the other says "Everybody hides a male prostitute inside, just some of them are cheap and some of them expensive".
That said, I really appreciate the trading more than the sale.But  both ebay and discogs have in their listings regularly such bootleg records. See www.popike.com and type any major group, dire straits as well. popike is a catalogue of the most expensive records sold via ebay, for about a decade. You will find that more than 50% of the records that fetch high prices are bootlegs, many of them very recent! So you do find them on ebay. It is a puzzler  when it comes to ethics, isn't it?
dmg you make a very nice point, from the beginners side, who has nothing to trade!

[dmg]

twm shall be on soon to inform us all that the 1st. bootleg was in fact a Dylan one!

"That first bootleg is now legendary, a collection of Bob Dylan recordings dating from 1961, plus miscellaneous studio out-takes, and seven tracks from the Basement tapes sessions, all under the name of

[vgonis]

dmg in a way you are right. I was reading this "LP Goodbye" book the other day and he was mentioning that from the early 50ies, the first "bootleg" recordings appeared, and they were jazz compilations, transfered from 78 records onto the new 33 format, by avid collectors. They had found a loop-hole in the legal system of US copyrights and they were doing this for the pleasure of it and in order to save these recordings from extinction. Of course a great deal of money had to be spent to buy all these machines and to produce the records and to cut them andd to print the (newly arrived) envelopes/sleeves we now take for granded and distribute them and so on. So in order to keep this up they had to sell them!!! There was a parody of a trial and the legal system fixed that hole one and for all. (The legal system in the US works with the results of previous similar cases. ) There were many albums after that, all bootleg, but Dylan's album must have been the first from a popular artist and the knowledge of breaking the law.

[IrisRose]

When I first started, I was lucky enough to find three collectors/traders who were very generous with b&p.      Then a couple of years later, Passalong came along but the downloads could be purchased only in the US.    Downloaders who paid were allowed seven copies.    I used those with European friends to increase my collection.  I finally had something to trade.    Before I knew it was illegal/unethical/frowned upon by the artists, I bought a very few on ebay.    Very soon after that, artists convinced ebay not to list them.    For a while, all you had to do was complain and the listing would be removed.   So I am very surprised when you say that ebay still offers them.   
Then the torrents came along.   Most of the downloading sites, at least in the US have been shut down by the government, but those that keep their selections unofficial and without money involved stay open.   Traders' Den, Dimeadozen, the Knopfler Tracker.     There are other 'legal' ones.   I know that there are also a bunch of illegal ones.    Frankly I stay away from those.   When the sites are eventually shut down, their patrons may be held accountable also.   
Whether they are illegal or not is for legal teams to determine.   I think that free trading of concert recordings, free radio and tv interviews and such is fine.   But my feelings that people who make profit from these recordings that they got, probably free, are unethical.     So I don't buy them.   I don't think it is fair to the artist.   Knopfler used to be very generous about fans recording his concerts, but no longer.   And people did used to put money and effort into making 'silvers' and other quality bootlegs, but in my opinion as soon as money exchanges hands, they aren't bootlegs any more, but pirated.    I realize that is strong, but it's how I feel.   

[vgonis]

IrisRose, I really understand your point and we are on the same wavelength, just different pitches!   
I am not trying to convince you in any way, because I believe that since all bootlegs are illegal you are in for a dollar, in for a dime. Napster was shut down for providing music, official and unofficial. But they didn't shut it down because of the official content-this was the legal side of it. It was mainly because the companies didn't know how to profit from it, yet. They had the physical sales and they didn't believe that downloading would interest people! (itunes proved them wrong...)  Napster execs had suggested a form of cooperation with the big companies, but they turn it down. If big companies and artists think that they can make more money from unofficial recordings, they will enforce this ban even to the "legal" trackers. They have every right, it is their right legally and ethically.

But here is another dimention of it. I rarely have the time to listen to the bulk of recordings that trackers provide, but I do download them in the hope that I will find some eventually. And I have stopped buying (and looking for that matter, in order to avoid temptation) any recordings, because I can not afford them. But I really believe that both us fans and in a certain degree the general public, would have lost a great deal of fantastic music (sometimes better than the one officially released) if there weren't any bootlegs (physical or downloads). Grateful dead used to say that we prefer our fans to record our shows, than buying them from some money making bootleger. I really appreciate this statement and attitude. Pearl Jam more than 10 years ago have tried to deal with it by issuing a vast number of live recordings from the some tour, OFFICIALLY! Of course only few people could follow the whole project since the CDs were quite pricy as a bulk.
 You mention somewhere that "Knopfler used to be...but no longer". Is that a fact? I don't mean to offend you(I don't believe in the statement myself) but  just making a logical statement:   Maybe we should stop listening to the bootlegs, since he doesn't approve of them. Because this is the definition of unethical. We should be able to set the limits ourselves, disregarding any personal gain, like the pleasure of listening to this music.
I believe that this is only a fan talk, meaning that we are very small in numbers and the vast MK buying public doesn't really care for them and this is the reason we are allowed to have unofficial recordings, or the reason these recordings don't get an official release.
And you are right about ethics and law. Two completely different things! And this is a logical paradox.   
Thank you for your replies! A real pleasure!