A language issue?

[Jules]

I made a mp3 cd with all the songs released by MK since his GH record and I

[dmg]

As a native English speaker (I think I've said this before) but I think his songs have become simpler;  more often with a single meaning now, no memorable melody (which I think is an integral part of a well written song) and lazily based on books instead of using his own experiences or observations.  Some of his best works IMO have been written from the point of view of a reporter - no coincidence. 

[superval99]

I agree jbaent.  MK is definitely more of a songwriter these days and although Quality Shoe was from 2002, when I first heard it I thought the lyric was really clever and I still do.   Regarding melody - I think they are just as memorable, but perhaps more subtle than before eg "Before Gas & TV"   "Monteleone"    "Piper..."  "5.15am"........   

[Love Expresso]

Interesting thread.
I also think much about Mark's songwriting... I need everything I can get (LEO, dictionary, THIS FORUM) to get behind the meanings of his songs - and I am surprised every single time about how great he puts these stories into these short form of lyric. You know, it is not a short story, it's a song.
For example: 5.15 am for example: Master piece.

But dmg ist also right: In earlier years his writing was deeper. I thought about this term, "deeper", and came to my personal conclusion that it is about
reflection: When Mark says that he can write about anything, a word someone mentions, a bus time table, movies or books, I am not sure if that is something that is really so great to mention! Or to stay into my picture: His reflection of what he has around himself is more facile, it is not going very deep into his soul. I had once a thread opened about Border Reiver, and that we learned the deeper meanings of it only because of Mark's press release and interviews.

So it seems that song writing has become some kind of trade for him - I sometimes miss the artistic approach... I know it sounds silly to say this about MK but I struggle a lot (lyricalwise, not music)  with songs like Hard Shoulder, Cleaning My Gun, even So Far From The Clyde leaves some questions to me...

And that might be a language issue, and you would be right, jbaent!

Some positive examples:

Remembrance Day: The words perfectly mirror the mood: Mark said once that all these war memorials inspired him - and that
every village and town had some lost sons. The picture of these memorials can be found in the Maypole and later in the steeples - and the
stubble ground reflects the home ground from the sports in the first part - so he really makes strong pictures that help to illustrate what he means...


Before Gas & TV: Masterpiece. Period

5.15 am: When the ghosts of the dead people gather around the car, mute accusation, great, and the "back in time" part is also awesome - really epic...


I learned a lot of new vocabulary from MK, so I will always be thankful to him. He is an intregal part of my developments in English language, if you might call it so... and that contains interest in English history, landscape, and so on...

LE

[Pottel]

I think back in the day, when y'all's (can one actually write that  ) thinking his writing was "deeper" he was trying too much, and now it is more natural, this simpler at times.

[twm]

I am often stunned by the contributions of non-native speakers of English to fora such as this. The English used may not always be perfect (and these days, less than perfect English is daily demonstrated by established broadcasters on radio and television) but the English is generally easily understood, showing a grasp of vocabulary and sentence construction that is more than admirable. Indeed, it is remarkable.

At the same time, English is a language that has subtleties that are often difficult to grasp by many native speakers, let alone non-native speakers.

I am not really the person to comment on MK's lyric-writing ability in general or its development over time in particular. I would only say that it can sometimes be more difficult to express ideas, thoughts, stories, memories and similar matters in a simple way. Distilling these matters to simple, straightforward lyrics without distorting the original idea, thought, story etc can be really difficult.  The effort involved in achieving this should not be understated. Finding the right metaphor, the right analogy, the right image, to plant in the listener's mind is a delicate process. Then matching those lyrics to a suitable tune or musical motif can be just as tough.

I grew up in an age when protest songs were the order of the day but most of them hammer home a single message almost relentlessly. It could be fun joining in but it was a reductive activity. I know that some of you bristle at the mention of Dylan but, while he was first known as a protest singer and did write a few "hammer-home" social protest songs, most of what he wrote in that period of his life were not of that blatant kind and have lasted well. And he could write some strong "hammer-home" songs that were in no way protest songs.

My perception, as not essentially an MK fan, is that MK's writing has, if anything, strengthened and flowered. More important than my perception is that MK has not stood still in terms of writing. He is not simply repeating the formula of the past, the formula that brought him success, fame and riches, but is seeking to develop his songwriting in both width and depth.

[superval99]

My perception, as not essentially an MK fan, is that MK's writing has, if anything, strengthened and flowered. More important than my perception is that MK has not stood still in terms of writing. He is not simply repeating the formula of the past, the formula that brought him success, fame and riches, but is seeking to develop his songwriting in both width and depth.

Thank you, twm, I agree - you have said what I wanted to say!   

Regarding non-native English speakers.  I know I have said it before, but it always amazes me how fluently people from other countries manage to express themselves so well and often at great length too!   I think their grammar is sometimes much better than some native English speakers, probably due to the fact that teaching grammar and spelling was frowned upon in the 80s in this country, in favour of free expression.

[twm]

What Superval said about grammar and spelling, as taught in schools (or not taught in schools, to be more accurate) is absloutely right. Maybe it is a strength of English that it can still be used (or abused) in this way. Maybe it is a sign that the language can change and develop - and not ossify. On the other hand, this freewheeling attitude to language can have detrimetal effects on clarity and understanding. Even the omission of a comma (or putting it in the wrong place) can change the meaning of a sentence significantly.

The malaise is widespread. I know a prominent, professional writer on Dylan who is a graduate from a fine university, who studied there under one of the most revered scholars of English Language and Literature, and yet, in his own wrtings, can make some basic grammatical and spelling errors. Not extensively but, for me, very noticeably.

To support what Superval said, I know non-native speakers whose grasp of both the fundamentals and the "niceties" of the English Language is superb. I am thinking of one who is a native German speaker and another who is a native Spanish speaker and both have lamented the poor English used in the writings of some native English speakers.

I am not grammatically correct in everything I write, nor is my spelling always spot on, but I try to get right. Sometimes, I do express things in what is, technically, an incorrect manner but, on occasions, this is deliberate. I know that I am breaking the "rules". When I write articles, as I do in an amateur way, I review and review both sentence construction and word choice, in order to maximise clarity and minimise misunderstanding. I regard this as a writer's duty. Sometimes, I get the impression that that there are professional writers these days who just don't care. Sadly, I am not even sure that they do know that what they have written is incorrect.

[superval99]

Here's an example of one of my pet hates:



  COULD OF, SHOULD OF, WOULD OF


 COULD HAVE, SHOULD HAVE, WOULD HAVE


This is one of those errors typically made by a person more familiar with the spoken than the written form of English. A sentence like

[Love Expresso]

The real art I wish to reach some day however is saying things in as few words as possible - the way our chairman Pottel  does it! Pure admiration! (NOT kidding!) 

LE

[Fieneke2]

When we got internet at the end of 2000, I went to a forum of a TV show in the USA. I was a big fan of that show and was searching for information. Because I liked what I read and saw how much fun those people had, I liked to take part in the conversations as well! Problem for me at that time was that I forgot most of the English language that was taught at school when I was young. Because I wanted to participate I bought 2 dictionaries. One English-Dutch and the other Dutch-English, after all it was at that time 23 years ago that I wrote the English language at school!  

In the beginning I often needed my dictionary (uuuhhhhh

[dmg]

I wish you would write more messages Fieneke;  you have a great writing style and your character really shines through in all your posts.

[Fieneke2]

Ooooh whaauww dmg, you make me blush now!......... Thank you for your compliment!

Fieneke

[Pottel]

I love the way Germans typically say "or?" at the end of sentences, as they would say in German  "Oder" at the end of a question, inviting their counterpart to confirm the question. (absolutely NOT meant as an insult, my English is FAR from perfect)

[Fletch]

It's fun when a song has layers of meanings and is deliberately (or not) left ambiguous. I find it hard to listen to foreign music, because relating directly to the emotion of a song is part of the thrill.

I'd be interested in how many non-English people have misheard MK lyrics and then had a realization of what was really being sung?
For years I thought a line in Portobello Belle was "he don't care about your window box or garden gnomes !"
I personally think that's a better line too !!