Knopfler This year Live!!

[ferguitar]

Ferguitar, you really beat me, in my own game! Apart from the statements where irony meets sarcasm to create a unique blend, I have to disagree with you on two points.  Jon Lord created great space sounds with the ancient compared to today's instruments.  I do believe that DP without him would never have been the same.(Same goes of course for RB and IG and RG and IP. OK IP was included only because I like his drumming).
The other one about Hendrix, I have to say that even though he is way over rated, he was very gifted. I don't like his live stuff, too much noise, as you say, but you have to admit that the control he had obtained over the instrument was fantastic. His studio albums are all unsurpassed, innovative, primitive and yet light years ahead of their time. You have to remember that he was the first artist to produce a so complex studio album, Electric Ladyland, that was actually a great artistic and commercial success, even though he couldn't read and write music! Hell, I don't like his live shows, but if you can stand the test, you might be able to understand the control it takes to reproduce the studio sound with all these overdubbed guitars, on a single guitar. Playing licks, rhythm and solos while filling the gaps at the same time! (of course his backing band was terrific and could support him, especially M. Mitchell. May God rest their souls-It is the first group that all members are gone)   
That said he is the most over rated but still the one that deserves to be so. Just look at some other guitarists like Kurt Cobain! Frusciante! J.Mascis! Knopfler!!! Blackmore!!!! Gilmour!!!!! Just lucky to write some good songs in the right place at the right time. 

Sure, Todays Deep Purple is c rap and a joke to their past legacy. DP without Blackmore is like DS without MK. (oops The Straits anyone)LOL. You seem to know well enough about DP related history, did you hear about Over the Rainbow? Its Rainbow without RB!! They were like Straits pioneers! Of course, it lasted about 2 years.....

I was born in 79, so i was not there, but according to various accounts from various musicians who were there, Hendrix wasn

[xxFordiexx]

Whilst I think Hendrix really looked the part and had some great sounds, I do believe he is overrated purely on the fact that he's dead.....

[vgonis]

Dear ferguitar, please don't get me wrong. The music field is just joy and fun,not a battlefield. It is only a matter of taste and preferences, not matter of life and death, and that is why I always reply jokingly to such threads, because taking it too seriously actually kills half the joy. I respect every taste in music and that is why I will be the first to joke about my own little obsessions. (namely Dire straits, Mark Knopfler, Pink Floyd, Bob Dylan, Hefner and Belle and Sebastian.)  But I am no older than you, and I was listening and buying to Iron Maiden, Europe, Helloween, (don't laugh) Madonna and Michael Jackson before Dire straits and the rest I mentioned before. So, I can not deny my past...
Also been a rock fan (what ever this means) and working from an early age, allowed me to obtain all the records I could afford. It is no big secret, that you can find most easily, only the ones that sold millions of records, and usually these records have either a big hit or were actually good as a whole. Deep Purple and Rainbow are surely among the second group, that repeatedly released good records. I have all of their records until 1980, (and from then on only a handful) mostly on vinyl. Some I like more, some less, some I can't listen to anymore, but have fond memories from the time I was listening to them. My first DP record was their second one, before the classic line, and I still like it very much, thanks to the fantastic guitar of RB. (Since I mentioned Europe before, John Norum on his first album took a piece of the Donovan penned "Lalena" and added to one of his songs. By the way do you know the story and lift behind Child in Time? From Bombay calling instrumental be It's a beautiful day. And that is a fantastic record, that DP helped me find.)  Early on I also bought RB's Rainbow which I haven't heard for a long time, but still regard as great. (Rising has a more full sound, imo) By the way I heard Dio's "Dream Evil" 3 years before any Rainbow album!!! I would love to discuss DP and Rainbow seriously with big amounts of humor, seems I have lots to learn (I found out about OTR from you, just now), but maybe we could-should start a new topic-thread about it. What do you say?  

As for Jimi, no need to argue. I like his albums a lot, but don't have stocks on him, so over rated or not doesn't mean anything to me. But I remember when I first heard a mix tape with his best songs, his guitar playing was so different from anything I have heard that far (MK's too but in a more quite subtle way) and remember I was into Heavy metal guitarists that like to pick moves from other guitarists and use pyrotechnics to boost their sales. And millions of fans can't be wrong, even if some of them are dragged only from the hype and the critics over rating him. On the other hand Vanilla Fudge were good but didn't make it as big. Their records in MINT condition are costly to buy, and that means a lot.

[twm]

Good grief! Whatever else I might have expected here, it was not Vanilla Fudge.

I actually have their first album on vinyl, bought around the time it came out or soon after, probably on the basis of their "You Keep Me Hanging On" single. I used to love their slowed-down, drawn-out and heavily syncopated renditions of others' songs. "People Get Ready" was not perhaps the best example but I just love that song; "She's Not There" was pretty good, though. 

I guess my copy of the LP (Atlantic 588 086, for those who can be bothered to check these things) cannot be regarded as truly "mint" but it must be VG or even VG+. I never knew that there was a demand for such things. Some regarded Vanilla Fudge (and this album) as some kind of psychedelic phenomenon but that's not the way I heard them (or it). More symphonic than psychedelic, with some pretty emphatic drumming. In fact, it's the rhythm of the drumming that I can recall now as I sit typing this post.

While the solarised image on the front cover was striking, the photos of the band members on the back showed people looking decidedly uncool to me. Someone sent me a photo recently, one I'd never seen before, from around the same time, and, if I say so myself, I look a bit more cool than they did, in my yellow ochre poloneck, bright blue waistcoat, wildly multicoloured trousers, ignoring both the camera and the girl next me (now a singer-songwriter in New Zealand apparently) and staring up into the sky through dark shades. And I was just a student without a corporate budget with which to outfit myself.  If they were "psychedelic", they certainly didn't look the part. Later maybe but not in 1967. Now, The Incredible String Band (totally different sound, of course) really did look the part - and I saw them in places as small as a pub in Hampstead and as large as the Royal Festival Hall (when Tim Buckley guested for a few songs).

Another niggle about Vanilla Fudge is that, generally, I prefer to see and hear bands live. In their case, however, I suspect I would find that a rather tedious experience - not that I ever got the chance to see them live anyway.   

Also, I never bought any of their subsequent albums, which may say something.

[ferguitar]

Dear ferguitar, please don't get me wrong. The music field is just joy and fun,not a battlefield. It is only a matter of taste and preferences, not matter of life and death, and that is why I always reply jokingly to such threads, because taking it too seriously actually kills half the joy. I respect every taste in music and that is why I will be the first to joke about my own little obsessions. (namely Dire straits, Mark Knopfler, Pink Floyd, Bob Dylan, Hefner and Belle and Sebastian.)  But I am no older than you, and I was listening and buying to Iron Maiden, Europe, Helloween, (don't laugh) Madonna and Michael Jackson before Dire straits and the rest I mentioned before. So, I can not deny my past...
Also been a rock fan (what ever this means) and working from an early age, allowed me to obtain all the records I could afford. It is no big secret, that you can find most easily, only the ones that sold millions of records, and usually these records have either a big hit or were actually good as a whole. Deep Purple and Rainbow are surely among the second group, that repeatedly released good records. I have all of their records until 1980, (and from then on only a handful) mostly on vinyl. Some I like more, some less, some I can't listen to anymore, but have fond memories from the time I was listening to them. My first DP record was their second one, before the classic line, and I still like it very much, thanks to the fantastic guitar of RB. (Since I mentioned Europe before, John Norum on his first album took a piece of the Donovan penned "Lalena" and added to one of his songs. By the way do you know the story and lift behind Child in Time? From Bombay calling instrumental be It's a beautiful day. And that is a fantastic record, that DP helped me find.)  Early on I also bought RB's Rainbow which I haven't heard for a long time, but still regard as great. (Rising has a more full sound, imo) By the way I heard Dio's "Dream Evil" 3 years before any Rainbow album!!! I would love to discuss DP and Rainbow seriously with big amounts of humor, seems I have lots to learn (I found out about OTR from you, just now), but maybe we could-should start a new topic-thread about it. What do you say?  

As for Jimi, no need to argue. I like his albums a lot, but don't have stocks on him, so over rated or not doesn't mean anything to me. But I remember when I first heard a mix tape with his best songs, his guitar playing was so different from anything I have heard that far (MK's too but in a more quite subtle way) and remember I was into Heavy metal guitarists that like to pick moves from other guitarists and use pyrotechnics to boost their sales. And millions of fans can't be wrong, even if some of them are dragged only from the hype and the critics over rating him. On the other hand Vanilla Fudge were good but didn't make it as big. Their records in MINT condition are costly to buy, and that means a lot.

Nice dude. Maybe is my bad english, but i never said music is a competiton. I just stated DP withou RB is a joke . Yes, the Its a beautiful day story is pretty well documented. Ritchie is the first to talk about where he gets "influence" for his riffs. Lazy is lifted from Im so glad, Black Night is "borrowed" from Summertime and so on. Anyway, Bombay Calling got their "revenge" by using a Purple song (Wring that Neck) and making it their own.

Again, maybe you have a better grasp of english than i do, but i found you a bit snobbish at times. Nothing wrong with Heavy Metal/Heavy Rock music. On the opposite of what the so called experts says, it has a lot of value. Lots of melodies (yes, it has), nice instrumentation, great lyrics dealing with all subjects. People always say "when i was a kid" i listen to HM, now i cant do it anymore, cannot deny my past, im ashamed, dont laugh.....i say MEH. But its nice heavy rock music remains the underdog.

PS - "And millions of fans can't be wrong" - Are you sure?

[vgonis]

Ferguitar, I am not ashamed of my past, the reference has to do with the attitude coming mainly from metal-heads, that if you dare listen (and God forbid) like any other kind of music, you are a traitor! I still listen, like and buy heavy metal records. Keep following Maiden, Helloween, Metallica, and about a dozen more, and I really miss Crimson Glory.Their "Transcendence"  album was a masterpiece. Of course my life and preferences are quite different now, and the little time i have is mostly divided to other kinds of music. (not even MK!) If you notice I say don't laugh, just before Madonna, which by the way I am not ashamed, other wise I wouldn't have admitted it, in the first place. If there is something I don't like in heavy metal (and any other kind of music for that matter)  has to be a part of the fans with clogged minds and ears, that can't see quality and beauty in other music, some times even without even giving it a try.
As for your english, they are not bad at all. I bet mine are, if I sound pompous, arrogant, patronizing or snobbish. It is not my intention and I am sorry. I also don't like using the faces, because I like it a bit when people try to finger out if I am serious or I am joking. Maybe I should use them.  Thank you for telling me, so kindly.
 
I don't have an opinion for RB's solo career or DP's career without him, so I take your word for it. I know about S.Morse being an excellent guitarist, from the Kansas days, but that is not enough.

P.S.   Yes, millions of fans can be wrong (see Britney Spears ), but not for so long. And apart from fans, critics can't be wrong at the same time. And even if they are, well, they are not wrong about Hendrix, take my word for it.
By the way any releases by DP and Rainbow worth listening after 1980? (I have difficult to cure and Perfect strangers) And any other great records by other groups you like? Maybe we have more in common.
 

[JF]

Can't believe what was said about the GREAT Jimi
You can of course dislike his music, but saying he is overated ?

You have to remember that it was in late 60's. At this time, he was a musical OVNI.
Of course, nowadays, if you listen to whatever shred guitarist, you will find that Jimi is overated, but I totally disagree with that statement

He was a wonderful guitarist, he was a wondeful songwriter, his studio recordings techniques (with Eddie Kramer ), his sounds, his ideas were on another planet, regarding what was at this time.
and he was very humble

the rock guitar would never have been the same without him


Jimi was not only a fantastic rock showman, he did some fabulous arrangements in studio

listen to his studio recordings, and you will hear he wasn't " a noisy bastard with some uninpressive moves."

[Love Expresso]

Thank you, for putting this right, Jean-Francois!  This thread has lost track a few posts before somehow...

LE

[ferguitar]

Ferguitar, I am not ashamed of my past, the reference has to do with the attitude coming mainly from metal-heads, that if you dare listen (and God forbid) like any other kind of music, you are a traitor! I still listen, like and buy heavy metal records. Keep following Maiden, Helloween, Metallica, and about a dozen more, and I really miss Crimson Glory.Their "Transcendence"  album was a masterpiece. Of course my life and preferences are quite different now, and the little time i have is mostly divided to other kinds of music. (not even MK!) If you notice I say don't laugh, just before Madonna, which by the way I am not ashamed, other wise I wouldn't have admitted it, in the first place. If there is something I don't like in heavy metal (and any other kind of music for that matter)  has to be a part of the fans with clogged minds and ears, that can't see quality and beauty in other music, some times even without even giving it a try.
As for your english, they are not bad at all. I bet mine are, if I sound pompous, arrogant, patronizing or snobbish. It is not my intention and I am sorry. I also don't like using the faces, because I like it a bit when people try to finger out if I am serious or I am joking. Maybe I should use them.  Thank you for telling me, so kindly.
 
I don't have an opinion for RB's solo career or DP's career without him, so I take your word for it. I know about S.Morse being an excellent guitarist, from the Kansas days, but that is not enough.

P.S.   Yes, millions of fans can be wrong (see Britney Spears ), but not for so long. And apart from fans, critics can't be wrong at the same time. And even if they are, well, they are not wrong about Hendrix, take my word for it.
By the way any releases by DP and Rainbow worth listening after 1980? (I have difficult to cure and Perfect strangers) And any other great records by other groups you like? Maybe we have more in common.
 

I never fit stereotipes and the majority of "Heavy Metal" fans that i know are pretty open minded. A lot of MK and Dylan fans are not. Even MK sounds snobish when he talks about Heavy Metal music (ok, its his opinion but.....lol), he says he only like "roots" old music. What the hell does that mean? Blues? Country? If you want roots, im sorry  but you gotta dig deeper and go wayyyyy before blues/country, since there wAs lots of music before that that actually influenced those genres. He also say HM musicians cannot use Nationals  or use slide? Stick to be a dictator on DS dude. (MK is my favorite but camom....)

RB solo carreer is a Renaissence type of band (talk about "roots" music hauhua) called Blackmore

[ferguitar]

[quote author=Jean-Fran

[JF]

Sorry, totally disagree

can't explain, my english is too bad
I could argue in french, but too difficult for me in english

sorry, but I use google to translate some words or sentences, so apologize if my meaning is not accurate

I think It's a pity that when people think to Hendrix, they only think of live music, playing with teeth, guitar burned,and so on...
but Hendrix was more more more more than that
he "revolutionized" the recording in studio

of cours many other musicians of that era did some wonderful music, but after 66-67, many of them were inspired by his sutdio recordings technique, his guitar tones.
You can only think at the Beatles, the stones, led zep, CSN, Santana, Calpton, Beck...
all guitarists from this era would said to you they were totally blown away by him

just few days after Sergent Pepper's release, he listened to it backstage and played it live a few minutes after while Lennon and Mccartney were in the audience, saying, what the F... ? Who would do that nowadays ?
Mick Taylor said that he played backstage with Jimi, and there wasn't left-handed guitar available, but no problem, Jimi played with a right-handed guitar (strings reversed) without difficulties
there are many other examples of his musical facilities, and despite all this, he was very very humble


he explored all kind of musics : blues, rock, soul, funk, early hard-rock, "hard-blues", early fusion, psychedelic, british pop (yes, with vocal harmonies, and subtil arrangements), jazz (just before his death, he was playing with Miles Davis)
he was miles ahead from other musicians of his era, not necessarily in terms of techniques

and yes he was a wonderful songwriter, far more than MK.
That's the difference : MK is my favourite guitarist / musician /song writer, but I think that one of the best guitarists / musicians /song writers in the rock history is Jimi Hendrix, no doubt for the guitarist.
There was rock guitar before and after Jimi, it's obvious


Even Ritchie Blackmore was obviously influenced by Jimi, but never reached his level (although I like Deep Purple a lot)

DP without Blackmore is like DS without MK.

I disagree.
DS was obviously MK
but DP wasn't only RB.
Songs were composed also mainly by Lord and Glover

MK wrote and composed all songs.
He produced all, he choosed the arrangements
He sings, and play the main instrument in his music
so of course, MK is DS

DP is RB's guitar tone, but also Ian Gillian's voice, Lord's typical organ sound (listen to Lazy's intro), Glover and Lord's arrangements, etc...
So DP without RB is'nt really DP, but you can't compared it to the Straits, IMHO

There's big diffrences between DS which wasn't a band, and other bands like Floyd, Queen, DP, Led Zep, Who, Beatles, Stones.. which blended ideas from (almost) all musicians in their bands



In the end, I'm not trying to convince you
Just want to say that there are artists with some obvious genius, and even if we don't like them, we can recognize their talent
there are many artists I don't like, but I must say : wow, respect
and there are many other artists I love, but must admit : errr...not big references in art history

e.g I like watching Lethal weapon many times, but I know it isn't a "great" movie 
I think some Godard's movies are sublimes, but I hardly manage to reach the end....
I think that Bowie or Coltrane are great musicians in music history, but their music don't do anything to me
Sometimes, I like to listen to FM soft-rock from the  80ies, but I am aware it's not essential in the rock history

cheers

[vgonis]

Ferguitar, I know all of them but Danny Gatton. Just downloaded some videos from youtube, so I am one step from finding out. Thank you for pointing him out. The rest are artists I know and love, and have many or most of their works. I will have to get back to you some other time with my favourites, even though we have 3 or 4 common ones. As for Hendrix being over rated, I carry on because I love the wordplay. So, yes he is over rated. They have given him a god like status, when he was only a human. But then again, maybe the best human guitarist
Another one with godlike status, Eric Clapton, well I believe he is over rated.(I still enjoy very much his Derek & the dominoes album, his Cream output and at least 5 albums from his long career).  Peter Green was way better, even Jimmy Page was more versatile. But this has nothing to do with actual guitar skill, but with the success of the particular compositions. There are so many fantastic guitarists that they just didn't make it to the spot light of fame. So every famous guitarist, is in a way over rated. No need to argue on the degree of over rated-ness.  

Jean-Francois, your posts are so long, and if you have to translate, that speaks volumes for your passion. Bravo and thank you!
Listen to Coltrane's "A love supreme" and Bowie's "Alandinsane". My introductory records to them two 20 years ago. Gordard and Lethal weapon, in the mix How about Kislowskie or Hitchcock and Ghost dog? (only joking)

[vgonis]

ferguitar, I am going to create a new thread calling members to state their other favourite musicians/groups and albums. Check it out in a day or two, it will be there.

[ferguitar]

[quote author=Jean-Fran

[vgonis]

http://www.amarkintime.org/forum/index.php/topic,2252.0.html

The new thread I was telling you about ferguitar! A top 20 of favourite artists.