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Author Topic: Europe?  (Read 28269 times)

Offlinevgonis

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Re: Europe?
« Reply #45 on: February 16, 2012, 01:45:10 PM »
Fletch, Greece is not allowed to announce that the state has already defaulted. All the money coming from the new loans, are used to pay the debts. The Greek IRS, owes people so much money in form of tax returns, but can not afford to pay any of them back. And this is going on for at least 1 year!In addition it does not accept offsetting, except if it is on their interest. So if they owe me 1000 Euros and I owe them 100, they don't refund me the rest 900, promising to return it when they find the money, but without interest!. If, on the other hand, I owe them 1100, they will hunt me down and charge me with 5% interest for the first month up to 10% from the 6th month on. Of course the ones that owe  more than 100.000 are usually free to open new businesses. They cut down med expenses-so life expectancy will drop dramatically, education-less than 2% of the budget goes to education, and this is used mainly for new buildings and teachers' paychecks. No research, and last year not even books (I don't know if they have solved this particular problem). And so on, on all aspects of life.

So Greece default is only a matter of announcement. They will not let us announce it, until we sign to give everything as collateral and the prices for land, housing and labor drops, so that it will "attract investors" .  When our politicians bite the hook, then they will announce it, without warning, so that they can confiscate everything. That is why we were protesting a few days ago. They were passing laws and signing new treaties and a new memorandum ( that the British courts will supervise- strange eh? but it is the British "colonization" justice system that favors the one who lends the money! But it is still illogical since Great Britain is not a member of the common monetary system!) If this happens, they will send the clerks to evaluate all public property and take it. And since they set the prices, we will still own a great deal of money, that will only increase with the interest rate (3-5% at least) and with no means of production in our hands!   So I will be a slave in my own country! Of course people will not accept this, so they will have to find ways to "convince" us that it is for our own good. Sending  troops, is a solution, but that would reveal that the EU countries are not such a friendly co-operation of nations. So they have to spread fear and create reasons to send them here. Turkey is a nice reason! And they don't have to actually invade!

The youth tries to flee the country. The well educated, never return from their studies. But it is hard to leave. The crisis has hit hard the whole world. Canada and Australia, the most liberal countries in terms of immigration, have raised the bar very high. If I was a doctor or an engineer, I would be able to leave today, but all the rest have to wait and wait. I know i have tried for both. But even the strong family ties that keep us going, are not enough  to save us with all these new taxes. The unemployment is reaching officially 20% and unofficially it must be way over 30%. My family is helping me in any way, ( for the first time in my 15 year work life I receive unemployment benefit, but they are reducing it as well) so it is not enough and I also try to sell my things and do one day jobs, but it is very hard. Hopefully my wife still has her job, but as I said, all the prices are so high that we hardly make ends meet. We only think on  a day to day basis, otherwise we will go nuts. Any kind of future is so bleak that we try not to think of it. Our two daughters are the only ray of hope.
30.000 NEW homeless people, since last year. 25.000 people loss their job every month, and the rest that still have it are forced to get reduced pay and longer hours. 

So the short answers to your questions.
So what happens now VG?  Nothing good for the Greeks and for the rest of the EU population.
Will Greece default? It is already on default, at least for the Greeks.
Will the youth flee the country? It is getting harder, but they do and also the well educated never return after their studies.
Will your country be forcibly reduced into an economic backwater? It surely can get much worse, but after signing the first memorandum the solutions, unfortunately,  are a one way street. We can not negotiate, we can not search for funds from booming economies like Russia or China (this alone is a great scandal.)
Is there any chance Turkey will take military advantage of the situation (would they want to)? Turkey has never stopped claiming Greek territories and Turkish airplanes  breaks into Greece's air space almost every day! So yes the danger is always there.

You said you are unemployed now? Yes for the first time in 15 years.

If its not too personal, how do you see this affecting your short/medium term future? In a city it is always about the money. I've never looked for a job with a higher pay, if I didn't like it or felt creative. But this is not about money. It is about my country.
Come on, it is not funny anymore.

Offlinevgonis

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Re: Europe?
« Reply #46 on: February 16, 2012, 04:47:58 PM »


Fletch  take a look at this. It is very interesting and gives an overview of the Greece situation. It is about brand and branding and Greece!
Come on, it is not funny anymore.

OfflineFletch

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Re: Europe?
« Reply #47 on: February 16, 2012, 11:16:59 PM »
Fascinating video. It seems you are not alone but are copping all the headlines. All the news stories here concentrate on the financial sector, nothing as insightful as your posts.
Hey, i`ve got a truffle dog - finally a song the ordinary man can relate too!

OfflineBanjo99uk

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Re: Europe?
« Reply #48 on: February 17, 2012, 01:22:07 AM »
VG, great posts and insightful as a Brit to read, I have been to Athens (in fact i saw MK in concert there). It struck me then it was a place with alot of problems. I was surprised by the amount of grafitti everywhere. Which was a shame considering some of the amazing monuments and beautiful scenery. It was also very expensive which I assumed is due to you being in the Euro. I could never understand how the smaller economies could be placed on the same pedastool as Germany and France. I'm not anti European as its closer relationship was developed to stop another war. But I think that ideal has been persued to the detriment of countries like Greece. I've also been to Germany and thought it was wonderful, and unlike a few silly Brits I'm not anti German but I think they have alot to lose if you leave the Euro. These are fascinating but scary times. Good luck to you.

Offlinevgonis

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Re: Europe?
« Reply #49 on: February 19, 2012, 06:45:37 PM »
Pottel, Thank you! You Know...

Banjo, thank you. I try to give an accurate picture of the way things are. I come from a family that is  (or was) considered middle class, that couldn't afford private schools, was living in rented houses and when they bought an apartment repaid it by the time of retirement. So my point of view, really expresses people that have similar back ground.
Athens is a relatively new city. In 1820ies had less than 100.000 people, in the turn of the century double that and in 1937, roughly 500.000! Unfortunately many historical events (Balkan wars, WWI, the war with Turkey in the 20ies and the complete annihilation and genocide of the Greeks of Asia Minor , the great depression followed by a dictatorship and then WWII, civil war, the continuing depression, where Greeks fled by the thousands for USA, Australia and Germany, and then  dictatorship again, the Cyprus division and then... Miracle! The same people or their sons and relatives, that were in a way responsible for the wrong decisions (namely Papandreou family and Karamanlis and Mitsotakis families) returned from abroad that they were "fighting for freedom and democracy for Greece"(!) and had an ideology cloak to cover their real intentions and plans, at a time when ideologies were still alive (late 70ies). Andreas Papandreou, the father of George Papandreou, had a landslide victory in 1981, promising reforms and justice  and wealth! And from then on it was one way downhill for Greece. I have described somehow the rest in previous posts.
I only said this to point that now Athens has more than 5,5 million people and there was never careful planning for this place to accommodate so many people! We never had a strong economy to allow us to build skyscrapers and save land, (I remind you that we have many strong earthquakes), and too many refugees from all over the world (Russia, Egypt, Asia Minor etc). Quick solutions were taken to shelter them and provide a basic housing. These suburbs of Athens have the names of the original cities. New Philadelphia, New Halkidona etc. )     Streets are not big and now it is too late to do anything. Some regions of Attika are indeed very expensive and only wealthy people can afford to live there. But there are many suburbs that their value skyrocketed, and many poor people living there (New Ionia for instance) saw their properties raise in value. They sold their poor homes and got in return a large sum and in many cases apartments as well! So in many parts of Athens the educational levels of the  population are rather mixed.  The center of Athens (that a tourist usually sees) is such a case . That is why you see many graffiti. As for Athens being expensive, it is down to four facts: the Euro, the policy of all companies to sell in higher prices in Greece, than any other European country, the high rents in the touristic places (some times higher than London, Paris or New York and last but certainly not least, the greed of the owners. Their will to get rich quickly and easily.
Greece could leave Europe and Euro but it is very hard. Maybe under these memorandum conditions, it would be better to leave before signing them.   I will elaborate in a next post.
  
« Last Edit: February 21, 2012, 11:06:39 PM by VGONIS2002 »
Come on, it is not funny anymore.

Offlinevgonis

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Re: Europe?
« Reply #50 on: February 21, 2012, 11:20:52 PM »
I came across this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index

Even though it is, basically, statistics that I don't like, (mostly because they present results that can be easily explained one way or another,) this is interesting because the whole subject of this thread is the standards of living. I have notices some peculiar results, but they all depend on the factors they use to extract the numbers. Just keep in mind that since the wealthiest people in the world reside in certain countries, how they "change" the real outcome. I remind you that many big countries "paid" in people lives the reforms and their growth (Argentina, Russia etc.) while some other countries due to cultural and historical reasons, accept some things without much protest for changes (India, China etc.)
Anyway, it is statistics, take look it is very indicative what is going on and what will happen next to some other nation  if there is no response from all the people of the world.
Come on, it is not funny anymore.

Offlinevgonis

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Re: Europe?
« Reply #51 on: February 26, 2012, 09:58:31 AM »
Being the only Greek in this forum, I feel like there is a need to express what is going on, but also a need to prove that what I say is not only one man's thoughts and beliefs but also other people's every day life. I have come across this snippet from TV news, broadcasted live 10 days ago. If you could spare some time to watch it, you will get the whole situation in a nutshell.




Come on, it is not funny anymore.

OfflinePottel

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Re: Europe?
« Reply #52 on: February 26, 2012, 03:27:06 PM »
not entirely true Vgonis, i looked, we also have a member since 970 days, who never posted, "Flokos" :lol
any Knopfler, Floyd or Dylan will do....

Offlinevgonis

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Re: Europe?
« Reply #53 on: February 26, 2012, 06:08:12 PM »
The only active Greek then.  ;D
Hey Flokos are you there?

And here is the opinion of a British politician. At the EU parliament. I don't know his back ground but his points and remarks are revealing the very dimension that is usually forgotten, under the artificial economical weight.





And here is an interview. Do not agree 100% with everything he says, but still a different point of view. The interview in English starts in 00:57.



« Last Edit: February 26, 2012, 06:35:12 PM by VGONIS2002 »
Come on, it is not funny anymore.

Offlinevgonis

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Re: Europe?
« Reply #54 on: March 02, 2012, 05:24:51 PM »
Fletch, I came across this recently.



It is something you have been telling me about, previously in this thread, but for businesses. Even though I don't agree with everything they say, I can quite understand the point of view, both for the fossil fuels and the farmers. It seems as though the problem is international and maybe more important than Greece's default, but since connecting it with the news sources from the rest of the countries of the world, is next to impossible, it looks as if it's a local subject. I know that the no.1 issue today is Ecology. But there are several ways of doing it and it is very strange that in this case both ecologically and economically they have chose the least effective way.
Of course my sources are limited and I could be wrong, so could you tell me any thing more? Thank you!   
Come on, it is not funny anymore.

OfflineBanjo99uk

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Re: Europe?
« Reply #55 on: March 03, 2012, 12:41:22 AM »

The British politician is Nigel Farage and he is the leader of the United Kingdom Independence Party.  They have a reasonable following in the UK and although I have never voted for them he does make some sense to me.  How about a United Europe without the political constraints from Brussels.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2012, 12:54:09 AM by Banjo99uk »

OfflineFletch

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Re: Europe?
« Reply #56 on: March 03, 2012, 01:45:36 AM »
VG, the pros and cons of our carbon tax are definitely up for debate. The Prime Minister in her election campaign was recorded in an interview saying, "..there will be NO carbon tax in a government I lead.." - of course the law was passed last year and comes into effect this June/July! It IS unpopular, and a lot of Australians will not appreciate their cost of living going up (hello Greece) in what seems to be a token gesture to world carbon emissions.
The only positive I see is that Australian companies may be on the front foot when it comes to developing technologies that help minimise the tax.

I didn't know it was already affecting farmers because it's not been implemented yet. Farmers are doing it fairly tough though, they have coped with a drought for about ten years (which has well and truly broken this summer - its flooding across the country as I write) and no doubt the banks would have squeezed some folks harder during the GFC. It's true that we have an opposition leader who has pledged to repeal the law/tax, but talk is cheap!

All this just makes me want to listen to music!
Hey, i`ve got a truffle dog - finally a song the ordinary man can relate too!

Offlinevgonis

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Re: Europe?
« Reply #57 on: March 03, 2012, 02:37:02 AM »
Thanks for the info Banjo.You are correct,  apart from their wrong decisions, they have nothing to show. They cost us dearly, and I am not talking for only their salaries! I have heard stories about expensive schools for their kids and I wonder if their decisions are based on criteria different than the vision of a United Europe. Let's say that their decisions are only taken in order to hold on to their seats and way of life...

I was listening to the news today of a well known Greek politician that was (probably) wrongly accused for sending money abroad. The excuse that she gave was believable and easy to check out. Her husband wanted to invest in the building of a new ship in the UK! And my 1 pound question is: why is she in the Parliament? Who the hell voted for her? And for god's sake why? Financially the only Greeks that her rich state of mind would actually help and benefit are only  the rich ones. But she got 55000 votes when elected! I don't think that we have so many  rich people in Greece. I guess such people exist in every parliament of the world, but it is really weird if you think of it. I would never vote for a person that is so rich, because his judgment would be certainly fogged by his wealth and his will to sustain this wealth.   He/She would be in the position to change the laws for his benefit and use any inside information in order to gain more. Let's suppose that you are the Prime minister and you announce that you will do this or that e.g. a referendum, and you are aware that by doing this the stock market will go crazy. And you have money to play. What would you do? (wink-wink if you know what i mean)

Thank you Fletch! It is very strange that when it comes to ecology and Kyoto, nobody made a viable long term plan calculating the worse economic crisis. And now on top of everything else, governments that signed it  are forced to take action or face the penalties, which unfortunately burdens the already affected by the crisis. I know that USA and China never wanted to sign the thing and they are the biggest polluters of all! And the other countries are wasting money in order to buy some more emission limits from poor African countries!  Maybe stop the whole stupid way they chose to solve the problem and all together invest in ecological ways to produce energy.
We have a similar thing with trees here in Greece, and people seem to have accepted it, but that doesn't stop some people from obliterating big forests! And most of the times they get away with it.
Come on, it is not funny anymore.

Offlinevgonis

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Re: Europe?
« Reply #58 on: March 07, 2012, 09:54:44 PM »
http://www.1millionsignatures.eu/?a=en

This is a petition about the Greek debt. Please take a minute to read and if you wish to sign it. Thank you.

And an extra word. I have been thinking why we came to this state. I can really find dozens of obvious reasons but none of them is strong enough, or even if put together, for what is happening. There is something else behind it all. Our terrible politicians are forced by the IMF and EU to vote for the sell out of every resources and means of production, at the low prices that the "market" dictates. So we will sell for peanuts and still owe but with no way to produce and repay. In my opinion that is what should also be written in the petition. I understand that each Prime minister has to take care for its own people first, but not in the expense of other countries, especially if they are supposed to be a friendly or United country. The Euro-scepticists are proven right. 
Come on, it is not funny anymore.

Offlinevgonis

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Re: Europe?
« Reply #59 on: March 25, 2012, 05:35:27 PM »
Here is a quite revealing video for our Herman and german speaking friends!
Come on, it is not funny anymore.

 

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