Mark and Bob - Differences and similarities

[goldenheart96]

Hi all,

as you probably know, I'm currently struggling through Dylan's oevre to prepare for my concerts, and to understand what the fuss is all about   I suppose it's no secret I've always had my problems with him and never found access to his music. Well, I'm happy to report that even though I'm rather sure I will never ever be able to listen to his music 24/7, I am on the mend: I can now almost play an entire album without feeling the urge to turn it off  

I've been thinking a lot about why I don't like his work as much as I like those of other musicians, and my first conclusion would be that even though his lyrics are great (not all of them; personally, I'm not interested to hear about his lovesickness for example), his melodies aren't. Mind you, this is just my impression, but for me, most of them (not all) are repetitive and dull, and they don't have any highlights. Take the song "Desolation Row." Brilliant lyrics, stretched out in ten verses but the melody - yawn. So, I guess that when it comes to music, an interesting melody catches my attention first, lyrics come VERY close behind (Just to make it clear: a catchy melody alone doesn't make me admire a song. Bon Jovi's "It's My Life" is a great stadium rock song but not really intellectually challenging). But if the melody is uninteresting for me, I will never find proper - emotional - access to the song.

Now, I've been also thinking about Mark and Bob and their similarities and differences.
Some days ago, I found a German newspaper article about Paul Simon's latest album, "So Beautiful Or So What", and the author mentioned Bob Dylan and how both Paul and Bob have the same folky roots but their careers went different ways. Roughly translated, the article said that while Dylan took bits and pieces of original things he had heard, read or thought and made bulky montages in song form, Simon acted more sublime and musically savvy. His lyrics had to adapt the music and with his music, he alluded more than he was saying with words. When I read that, I knew I finally understood why I like Simon's work so much more than Dylan's.

Which brought me to Bob and MK. I think with MK, it's quite similar. He is a fantastic guitarist. He lets the Strat talk, where Bob would probably prefer ten verses of lyrics. Nonetheless, MK has developed as a songwriter, of course. Quite a few of his lyrics are brilliant, "5:15 am" comes to my mind, or the fantastic storytelling of "Donkeytown". I think he doesn't have to hide that much behind Bob. But since Bob has always been known as THE poet, it is of course hard to beat him. Just like Simon will always be Number Two (needless to say I disagree   ).

And this is probably also the reason why MK and Simon had bigger commercial success in their careers, simply because their music is easier "accessible" (although I could really disagree with some of Simon's work. Brazillian drums and 7/8 rhythms are certainly not everyone's cup of tea). And this again provokes prejudices among hardcore Dylan fans, who claim Bob is the nonplusultra and MK and DS are "only" meaningless pop music (I've read some pages on the Expecting Rain forum), and even say MK isn't a proper songwriter. AND, as a conclusion, think that MK fans are not able to understand Bob's greatness.

Anyway, now that I've made an attempt to put those musical differences in words, I wonder if we could continue to collect more differences and similarities between Bob and MK. Do they have similar musical roots? What is the crossroad that made their careers go different ways? What are these different ways? How about commercial success? Looking forward to reading your opinions.

[dmg]

And this is probably also the reason why MK and Simon had bigger commercial success in their careers, simply because their music is easier "accessible" (although I could really disagree with some of Simon's work. Brazillian drums and 7/8 rhythms are certainly not everyone's cup of tea). And this again provokes prejudices among hardcore Dylan fans, who claim Bob is the nonplusultra and MK and DS are "only" meaningless pop music (I've read some pages on the Expecting Rain forum), and even say MK isn't a proper songwriter. AND, as a conclusion, think that MK fans are not able to understand Bob's greatness.

What colossal arrogance from these Dylan fans.  Ignorance too.  Funny how they're always the ones with the loudest voices in life.

[Jackal]

*Do they have similar musical roots?
Yes and no. They both were into "plain" music such as old-time blues, country blues and folk, Dylan more so into folk.

*What is the crossroad that made their careers go different ways?
Mark's earliest guitar influences were of course, amongst others, The Shadows and Hank Marvin, very melodic and arranged music, which is indeed reflected in his playing style and compositions. This is in my opinion one of the reasons that made Sultans such a hit, it was was catchy and melodic.

*How about commercial success?
Mark is simply a better musician and has produced good and accessible music (at least more accessible than Dylan's), even though his lyrics have not always been up to snuff. In the 60s, people made Dylan into something into he didn't want to be, a spokesman for the generation, and I think a lot of people esteem his work higher than he might deserve, simply because he is "that guy". He is also eccentric and "mysterious", so a lot of those things I think have generated interest in him and make people overlook the fact that his music is pretty simple and that his voice is at times unlistenable.


One other thing that probably sets them apart is the fact that, even though Dylan might view himself as a "prophet" (or whatever), he does come across as having a message, having something he wants to say. Mark has never been political in his music, at least not explicitly, and has been more focused on music for music's sake (art for art's sake). Dylan wants to say something and doesn't want pretty melodies, fancy chords and elaborate arrangements to blur the view. Plus, he probably doesn't have the ability to do it. Mark on the other hand, with no agenda, no political message, being the highly creative and musical person he is, uses music more creatively. Interestingly, as Mark has become more lyrics oriented over the last years, his music has also become less elaborate. (Only problem for me is that I feel he doesn't have much to say except rehashing books he has read. Thus, as the lyrics, in my opinion, are pretty irrelevant, and the music gets duller, I'm losing interest. But that's another topic. (Paul Simon's and Ry Cooder's last albums are right up my alley though - interesting lyrics, interesting topics (life, death, God, politics) and great, lively, melodic and engaging music.))

[Fletch]

It's funny saying Dylan doesn't want fancy melodies & chords. His last three major works are full of them (I'm ignoring the Christmas album!)
Yes there's a lot of rambling blues, but also songs like Floater, Nettie Moore, Make You Feel My Love and quite a few more that have interesting chord progs and nice melodies. Just thought I'd mention that. I've said before, latter day Dylan is a shining star in my musical world. Anyone that doesn't own Love and Theft should give it a try, then move on to Modern Times, Tell Tale Signs and Time Out Of Mind.

But you're right in regards to Bobs poet and lyrical leanings. He earnt his reputation in the 60s with surreal, twisted and often funny lyrics.

[Jackal]

I'm sure there are exceptions, but on the whole I think it's fair to say that Dylan steers clear of "fancy chords and melodies". For sure there is somewhat jazzy material on Modern Times (I have it) (I have to check out the two other last albums), but it never amounts to more than "jazzed up" versions of his regular folk/rock/blues tunes. His music never strays far away from those genres. Not saying that's a bad thing, but it clearly differs from Mark's approach, both solo and particularly with Dire Straits.

Another area where they differ is that Dylan's albums sound much more "live" than Mark's, which I absolutely think is a good thing. It reminds of an interview with Mark in a guitar magazine in the 90s where he said that he heard Telegraph Road on the radio and then Buddy Holly with a simple rock tune and how he thought TR sounded like some "old toss" in comparison.

[superval99]

It reminds of an interview with Mark in a guitar magazine in the 90s where he said that he heard Telegraph Road on the radio and then Buddy Holly with a simple rock tune and how he thought TR sounded like some "old toss" in comparison.

I still have the magazine!   It was "Rave On"     

[Fletch]

(I have to check out the two other last albums)

I'm sure you'd enjoy Love and Theft and Tell Tale Signs!

And the magazine quote is Guitarist aug 95, often reprinted in various mags too.

[Jackal]

Actually, I think it was called The Guitar Magazine (now Guitar & Bass Magazine), and the interview was from the OES tour.

Mark of course uses the same phrases over and over ("still remember the smell of the Fender catalogue ..."), so no wonder the story popped up in different places.


EDIT:

It was this one (for sale at ebay, btw: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Guitar-Magazine-January-1993-Mark-Knopfler-/250843756120?pt=UK_Magazines&hash=item3a6773f658#ht_1631wt_1163)

[Rollergirl]

very nice post goldenheart and very well written too, you have a great writing style, you should be a journalist... 

only teasing 

I agree with you, for me it's also melody 1st, lyrics close second.

and the difference between them for me? I love one and I quite like the other one

[superval99]

Actually, I think it was called The Guitar Magazine (now Guitar & Bass Magazine), and the interview was from the OES tour.

Mark of course uses the same phrases over and over ("still remember the smell of the Fender catalogue ..."), so no wonder the story popped up in different places.


EDIT:

It was this one (for sale at ebay, btw: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Guitar-Magazine-January-1993-Mark-Knopfler-/250843756120?pt=UK_Magazines&hash=item3a6773f658#ht_1631wt_1163)

Yes, that's the one!    The song was "Rave On"!   

[Jackal]

I'm sure you'd enjoy Love and Theft and Tell Tale Signs!

Just listened through Love And Theft and Together Through Life. Focused only the musical content. They and Modern Times sound exactly the same! You've got your rambling blues numbers, the awful 30s style crooner numbers and the slow atmospheric numbers. They have the same production sound (same producer?), almost identical instrumentation, etc.

One thing too that I noticed on Modern Times but which is also the case with the other two albums is that songs very much lack dynamics. The song starts, the groove goes on in the same tempo and at the same volume until the end. No tempo shifts, no pauses, no crescendos. Add to that Dylan's monotonous raspy voice and you're in for some pretty predictable listening.

[goldenheart96]

Very interesting, keep those replies coming.

Jackal, I had the very same impression. Just wouldn't be able to categorise the music as well as you did, since I haven't listened to these albums that well yet.
But what I can say is that I have the feeling his latest albums sound like "old man music", it's a terrible term but maybe you know what I mean. That said, I do like "Beyond Here Lies Nothing" and "Things Have Changed", and yes, even "Mississippi" and "Tweedledee and Tweedledum" for some odd reason. I have to check out those "nice" melodies Fletch mentioned earlier.

You said Bob's albums have more of a "live" feeling than MK's, could you elaborate?

Oh and about MK focusing more on the lyrics in his recent work (agree that his topics repeat themselves), funny, I thought the same after I finished my first post. As a whole, there is certainly a reason to say his melodies get duller, I, for instance, find big parts of the Shangri-La album endlessly boring ("Everybody Pays" or "Sucker Row" - yawn). Also, as we all know, the guitar is much more in the background now. But I still think he has a good sense for nice melodies and instrumentation, "Postcards from Paraguay" or "So Far From The Clyde", "Border Reiver" come to my mind. And he uses the guitar more subtle, which makes most of his songs still interesting somehow. He still is a guitarist, even though he claims to be more of a songwriter these days. But he cannot forget where he came from, which is good thing.

By the way, I read through the lyrics of "Desolation Row" again and it's interesting how Bob uses the fairground/carnival metaphor (forgive me if my interpretation of a Dylan song sounds amateurish) over ten verses to create a vivid image, whereas the melody repeats itself and bores me. Now, MK likes the carnival metaphor too - think of "Devil Baby", "Rollin' On", or even "Tunnel Of Love". And he also creates a vivid image - but with the melody.

[Jackal]

You said Bob's albums have more of a "live" feeling than MK's, could you elaborate?

I'll answer with a quote from my current hero, R.C:

[Fletch]

I'm sure you'd enjoy Love and Theft and Tell Tale Signs!

Just listened through Love And Theft and Together Through Life. Focused only the musical content. They and Modern Times sound exactly the same! You've got your rambling blues numbers, the awful 30s style crooner numbers and the slow atmospheric numbers. They have the same production sound (same producer?), almost identical instrumentation, etc.

One thing too that I noticed on Modern Times but which is also the case with the other two albums is that songs very much lack dynamics. The song starts, the groove goes on in the same tempo and at the same volume until the end. No tempo shifts, no pauses, no crescendos. Add to that Dylan's monotonous raspy voice and you're in for some pretty predictable listening.

Well glad to see you gave it a shot. I think L&T is a timeless classic. But if you don`t like it, you don`t like it!
As i`ve previously mentioned, for my own taste, Bob kicks the ass of most music thats pouring forth in these modern times , and Bobs albums on high on my play rotation in comparison to Marks solo work (which only says something about my own lack of caring for celtic like ballads.) I`m not ashamed to say that I much prefer Marks work in DS and as a guitar player than any of the solo stuff, and I realise that i`m in a minority here in that sense.

As for dynamics, I think Blind Willie is probably the only BD song that has any (?) Nothing comes to mind.

[Jackal]

I do like them, but they are too similar in style to justify buying all three of them. I listen to Modern Times from time to time, and I don't think I skip anything, not even Beyond the Horizon. But to have two more CDs with that would be too much.

I listened to Love Over Gold today, skipped the two first songs by the way, but the three remaining ones I really enjoy. Industrial Disease is really brilliant. Wish Mark would get some of that sting back in his work.