A Mark In Time
Mark Knopfler Discussion => Mark Knopfler Discussion Forum => Topic started by: Jules on March 16, 2014, 12:04:26 AM
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This is extracted from the italian forum, so the explanations are in Italian but, thats what google translator is for:
http://knopfler.forumfree.it/?f=1545519 (http://knopfler.forumfree.it/?f=1545519)
Grazie Mimmo!!!!
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Holy guacamoly!
Those acetates, I want to hear them.
Is this shared somewhere? If not, what is he waiting for?
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thanks for the link jbaent!
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Really his collection is OUT OF THIS WORLD. Honestly, hats off.
And best is yet to come I am sure.
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Wow, that's some really nice stuff :o
Especially love the Tunnel of Love acetate, with the two alternate mixes (one with a intro on the electric guitar???). Also a Six Blade Knife acetate, very, very cool.
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I don't get it. It should be the actual demos, or alternate demos (six blade knife) but many of them we haven 't heard, have we??
Correct me if I am wrong, but those song on acetate are not widely available?
Especially LoG demos, What's the matter baby demo, Solid Rock demo (or there is one on the rare sessions? I don't remember), and Six blade knife alternate demo.
So how come all of you are acting so cool? Like if it was just another 92 bootleg with not a good sound... This is something ultrarare, the actual neverheard demos. Or am I missing something?
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yeah, can someone that speaks fluent italian pls enlighten us?
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Mimmo is not one of the many collectors, he is the biggest collector of Dire straits (and Knopfler) material in the world!
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It seems as though! Anyway, apart from time, money and devotion, some of the items in Mimmo's collection reveal another sort of relation that demands trust. I mean if these demos are circulated, there could be copyright issues and trouble. While now they are just atrefacts, just objects of desire. I mean Mimmo could have stayed in the shadows, like so many bootleggers do and issue these things, but he doesn't, and that speak volumes.
So nobody acts cool here, we all want to hear them and have them, we just know they are very rare, impossible to have, and what's more it is highly unlikely to listen to them due to these copyright issues. I just hope, MK will decide eventually to allow the circulation of demos and other recordings, so we can listen to them.
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Anyone of us would love to listen to that acetates, but if it wasn't for Mimmo, sharing the existence of those, we'd never known that those items exists.
Sometime its better not to know. But I like to know, and I thanks him for sharing.
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Exactly my thought jbaent!
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so mimo's a hoarder, and yet again no hoarder at the same time...
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He is a hoard-collector of precious artifacts that contain even more valuable treasures, for us crazy fans, that unfortunately can't be shared. It's a tricky situation. ;)
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that is what i meant.
i real hoarder would boast about his collection everywhere, in every little detail, and then not share anything, enjoying the envy from all sides.
this is clearly not the case here.
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that is what i meant.
i real hoarder would boast about his collection everywhere, in every little detail, and then not share anything, enjoying the envy from all sides.
this is clearly not the case here.
Ah, this reminds me of one of the founding members of TR-mailing list. Initials T.M. ;)
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I mean Mimmo could have stayed in the shadows, like so many bootleggers do and issue these things, but he doesn't, and that speak volumes.
If he "issued" these things, at least they would be available, because many people would buy them, so to speak.
I mean if these demos are circulated, there could be copyright issues and trouble. impossible to have, and what's more it is highly unlikely to listen to them due to these copyright issues. I just hope, MK will decide eventually to allow the circulation of demos and other recordings, so we can listen to them.
Oh come on, do you think that MK allowed the release of all those demos we know?? E.g. the first album demos or the monitor mixes of OES songs?? Seriously doubt it given MK's attitude towards releasing rare songs or back catalogue.
I bet the story is that somebody got hold of them one way or the other without MK's or Ed's consent.
(Btw I really doubt that we will see any demos of any kind being released officialy by MK, or any other "rare" piece of music from DS).
Sorry, but this copyright theory is just an excuse for fans and their "affection" for this guy who has something they don't (it's like saying: look at this guy what cool stuff he has, wow).
I don't get the point about him and his forum where he speaks about the songs and how different they are from all other versions we've heard. What's the point in saying that this song is 21seconds longer and has keyboards in the right channel and 3 guitars at once and you can hear MK smoking a cigarette and such and such and such, when nobody else on the planet (beside DS guys) heard them??!
It's like obtaining a unique never seen before painting of a famous painter and then hanging it over your bed and taking pictures of it and posting it all over the net with description: "look at what I have??"
Oh yeah, and when was I supposed to clap to your majesty?
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I dont get whats the problem with a big fan showing that exists an acetate with Solid rock and Whats the matter baby recorded by the original quartet.
I cant get it, if it bothers you, you can avoid this thread, but it wont change the fact that these acetates are rare and difficult to find, and Mimmo was able to find and get them. And now he let us know about their existance. Thats perfectly ok with me, very appreciated, and truly enjoyed.
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boboDS, I hear what you say, but I think it is only a different point of view and appreciating the facts. No right or wrong. Just trying to give an explanation.
As I said every fan of DS/MK would like to have these recordings, and also have everything that bares the name DS/MK on. These acetates are in fact the pinnacle of collecting, because as items are unique and impossible to have (1-5 copies available only) and as content, they are the only released (in disc form) alternate versions. Some artists used to cut these in order to listen to at home or send to producers and decide if the version is good enough for release. So if they come from master tapes and the master tapes are in existence, the artist or the company have them also, but in our case they are unwilling to issue them officially.
(In rare cases such as the Quarrymen acetate, there was only one copy because the acetate was created straight from the band playing live. And that is why Paul McCartney paid a very huge amount of money to obtain it. )
Mimmo and whoever else has acetates, could keep it to himself or reveal it, as Mimmo chose to do. In either case, sharing the content is another thing altogether. It is against MK wishes, it is a copyright issue for the company and publicists (the live bootlegs are a different thing altogether, since MK explicitly allows them) and really we should learn how to refrain ourselves from some things, because would you like to make them mad about such issues and force them to ban everything, like some bands do?
MK, does not want to add any extras at the re-releases of the official DS albums. And I bet these versions and more (Suicide towers, Eastbound train and What's the matter baby -studio versions, Real girl, In my car etc. are available to him and his company. This means that any releasing of alternative takes are not just a copyright issue it is in a way a breach of trust from a loyal fan. And many of the items that he has come straight from damage management. Also, the masterdiscs are a very rare and pretty expensive item to obtain, but it doesn't interest many fans, because it is just an item. The recordings are already available.
So yes, I would like to have these versions as well, but I do understand why they can't be available. And believe me, a shared secret is secret no more.
But like I said, it is only a matter of opinion.
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Known collectors of unreleased copyrighted material can't share it otherwise they would have problem doing so.
But seeing these and being unable to listen them is sooooo frustrating for any fan - we are looking for everything recorded!
We have had three volumes of Beatles unreleased takes anthology, so who knows if one day Dire Straits will be getting one published.
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In either case, sharing the content is another thing altogether. It is against MK wishes, it is a copyright issue for the company and publicists (the live bootlegs are a different thing altogether, since MK explicitly allows them) and really we should learn how to refrain ourselves from some things, because would you like to make them mad about such issues and force them to ban everything, like some bands do?
OK, but my question still stands.
How did we get all those demos we already heard? Monitor mixes?? Do you really think that MK gave his OK to them??
Regarding the making a band mad. I think it completely doesn't matter if a band decised to ban something or everything or whatever in case of demos. Because those demos were sold as bootlegs (songs under copyright), bootlegs for money, which is already illegal. So it doesn't matter if the band says "you can't!", because the law already says "you can't". So they can be banning whatever they would like to, it doesn't help to prove anything.
Of course this is strictly speaking about the leaked material, not live recordings.
+ What is the situation in case of leaked material anyway?? E.g. the recently "leaked" Pink Floyd animals demos, did the band expressively say that "this is ok by us, it can be on youtube"? Or did they say "this is against the law, put it down"? 2 weeks ago, there was neither, I haven't been following it since then. What does the law say? More importantly, do they even care?
+ Thousands of demos are being shared, are they all illegal?
+ There are bootleged Dire Straits shows in the stores (Rockpalast is at least one, even sold as vynil), which are sold as officially released material. I have talked to several record shop owners in some European states and neither of them had NO idea they were illegal. We, as fans, have brought this fact multiple times to the resposinble people, PCM or whatever. And what did they do?? I don't know if they did anything, but the situation is still the same. Do they even care?
it is in a way a breach of trust from a loyal fan.
If we want to speak about loyalt, letting them know that there are bootlegs sold is "at least a bit" loyal, but is it loyal from them not to take care of it??
+ Now putting aside the law. Would MK even care (there's similarity with the Animals bootlegs I say)? Would he care about some 5 demos from long lost history appearing?? Does DS interest him in any way these days (or the last 5 years anyway)? Are these songs that different, is there any possibility of a bad performance in the songs, or do they reveal something that has to be kept as a secret?
More importantly, does MK have a problem with The Straits? There could a thin line between legal or illegal in this case, just like Chris White said in the interview. But I think, again, much more important question is, if he cares / has a problem with it. Because if he was this overprotective he would have stopped this in the beginnig and I don't think lawyers would have a problem with proving it. Just as they would have stopped sharing live shows, demos, leaked material, etc, if MK wanted to.
Also, the masterdiscs are a very rare and pretty expensive item to obtain, but it doesn't interest many fans, because it is just an item. The recordings are already available.
Which recordings? Because at least Six Blade Knife alternate, Tel Road demo, Private Invest demo, What's the matter demo are different judgding from the description text he posted. Not sure about the Solid Rock, to lazy to take out the Private Sessions, or Sultans, because haven't read that one on his forum. And if they were already available, what is this debate about then?
Still, I am more and more convinced that he doesn't want to share it and all this is bollocks, than convinced that he is being loyal and such.
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People owning recording that others can't access always piss off the excluded ones. That's human nature.
It remembers me about some traders circle debate - that generally turn vinegar.
So I prefer to go back to the collection itself - these are unknowns treasure. I had no idea that "What's The Matter" had been recorded.
I personally think that it is great to know that they exists. And I can live with the idea that maybe one day I will be lucky to be able to see some of these demo released.
We know that there is tons of recorded stuff waiting in the closet.
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boboDS:
How did we get all those demos we already heard? Monitor mixes?? Do you really think that MK gave his OK to them??
VG:
The demos we have are only some from their first album, some from OES and some from MM. The first album demos could have come from various sources, this being the demo tape they sent to many people back then. The OES are too few to even mention, but I guess they were from advance promos send out, and MM ones come from the Arena documentary. So in a way they were officially made available but only to a small amount of people. And they were never released for the mass audience. The fact that 100, 1000, 10000 people? know about them and even some have as silver pressed or as downloads, doesn't mean that are in the clear. They were made available, some may have them, anytime the artist and copyright holder can go after them. After all this is a public place we talk, anyone can see. And teasing a person against his wishes is not very good.
BoboDS:
Regarding the making a band mad. I think it completely doesn't matter if a band decised to ban something or everything or whatever in case of demos. Because those demos were sold as bootlegs (songs under copyright), bootlegs for money, which is already illegal. So it doesn't matter if the band says "you can't!", because the law already says "you can't". So they can be banning whatever they would like to, it doesn't help to prove anything.
Of course this is strictly speaking about the leaked material, not live recordings.
VG:
This is the point I am trying to make. There is a double identity with these objects: The actual disc and the recording on it. The disc can be sold and bought, the recordings on them can't. So if someone buys them, he is under obligation not to reproduce the recording. After all if we are talking about acetates, read about the solid rock one, it was a gift. The gift barer can do whatever he wishes with it, even sell it, but he sells the actual object, not the recording. It is a thin line, but really exists. And yes, it is against the law to make money out of other people's work, and this is the definition of bootlegging. But it is also illegal to give away without permission. As for music, many artist understand that live bootlegs are targeting a small audience, the hard core fan base, that already buys the official material, so there is no point going after them. As for studio material, it is a whole other matter, since that material could antagonize the official product, or even destroy a myth/hype/reveal a secret etc. But even in this case, the studio recordings are for a small target group, so even Pink Floyd that gave them made relatively limited numbers of the Boxes. So in a way demos are not economically viable ALONE thus not a very big loss. Unless you intend to do such boxes, and MK doesn't. So I give you this, which is logical but unfortunately still not legal.
BoboDS:
+ What is the situation in case of leaked material anyway?? E.g. the recently "leaked" Pink Floyd animals demos, did the band expressively say that "this is ok by us, it can be on youtube"? Or did they say "this is against the law, put it down"? 2 weeks ago, there was neither, I haven't been following it since then. What does the law say? More importantly, do they even care?
VG:
Animals demos are very interesting to a fan base, (love them) but really close to the actual recordings. But that is no excuse. They are illegal and it is always up to the artists to go after them. The fact that nobody went after them does not make them legal. It is like trespassing. The fact that there is no fence/isn't locked and nobody catches you, doesn't mean you are not breaking the law. And I am grateful the demos exist. I guess since animals didn't have a super deluxe edition like DSOTM, WYWH and the Wall, they let them be.
BoboDS:
+ Thousands of demos are being shared, are they all illegal?
VG:
Demos are not by definition illegal. Many artists release them like including Pink Floyd issued a bus load of them with The Wall, DSOTM and WYWH. These are legal demos. And the ones that are not released are legal until someone spreads them around, for free or for money, because they don't serve the purpose they were created and because the artist, and copyright owners don't get money out of it.
BoboDS:
+ There are bootleged Dire Straits shows in the stores (Rockpalast is at least one, even sold as vynil), which are sold as officially released material. I have talked to several record shop owners in some European states and neither of them had NO idea they were illegal. We, as fans, have brought this fact multiple times to the resposinble people, PCM or whatever. And what did they do?? I don't know if they did anything, but the situation is still the same. Do they even care?
VG:
I think that some of the radio and TV broadcasts fall under a different law for issuing, so at least some of these recordings are actually legit. Can't really tell which, but if you have time it is not hard to find. I believe Rockplast is legit. Anyway I have spotted bootlegs in many main street record shops. If they are found, they may be forced to hand them over to authorities, destroy them and maybe pay a fine. Do you know the Page/Plant story with the bootleg records in Turkey? Page took them out of the shelves and walked away without paying, while Plant, cooler about such things, paid the owner. And they were the worse bootlegs there are, those of their official records and recordings!!! The fact that Plant accepted a simple reality for that moment, doesn't make the records legal and the shop legit.
boboDS:
If we want to speak about loyalt, letting them know that there are bootlegs sold is "at least a bit" loyal, but is it loyal from them not to take care of it??
VG:
Again, knowing that someone has an item, that was obtained legally is not an issue. Sharing the content is. Let me give you a far fetched example. Ever seen a promo copy that bares the writing:"Not for sale. Possession of ... record company. Item should be returned upon request ", for sale? Even though ebay and other sites allow the sale, if the company asks, the listing will be taken down immediately and if the company pushes even more, can demand the return of the promo. Selling is illegal, because the CD was made especially for promotion and no rights were given to the artist for the copy. Having is legal, until the company (if ever) ask you to return it. They don't know you until you reveal you have it. Loyalty is something strange. I mean that it can be interpreted in many ways and degrees. But it is actually a personal matter. I just try to justify and understand why he is not sharing. And an example from my field as a photographer. When I sell a photo at an exhibition, I don't sell the right to use it anywhere they please, I sell the actual item. In a way I am renting the image for a specific use, that of exhibiting at home. It is the same with the records, movies books etc. The fact that they come (or used to come , since now we have MP3s and digital downloads) with a physical object does not give you any rights, other than listening to it at your private place. (home, car etc)
boboDS:
+ Now putting aside the law. Would MK even care (there's similarity with the Animals bootlegs I say)? Would he care about some 5 demos from long lost history appearing?? Does DS interest him in any way these days (or the last 5 years anyway)? Are these songs that different, is there any possibility of a bad performance in the songs, or do they reveal something that has to be kept as a secret?
VG:
I don't know if he cares, but even if he doesn't, his publicist, company, etc might. As I have written long ago, the artist might not even remember the recording, might not have an objection, might even be pleased with it. But is this the way to find out? And maybe one - two songs have similarities with other songs, that can cause trouble and that is why they were not officially released. Or they were deemed as poor/fillers. Or he is just saving them for a later release. Stevie Nicks released "Planets of the universe" some 20 years after it was originally recorded from Fleetwood Mac during the Rumours sessions. (but a brand new version).
BoboDS:
More importantly, does MK have a problem with The Straits? There could a thin line between legal or illegal in this case, just like Chris White said in the interview. But I think, again, much more important question is, if he cares / has a problem with it. Because if he was this overprotective he would have stopped this in the beginnig and I don't think lawyers would have a problem with proving it. Just as they would have stopped sharing live shows, demos, leaked material, etc, if MK wanted to.
VG:
MK may have an issue , (as Guy said) but there are not many things he can do, since they do not call themselves Dire straits. All the rest that being said is a matter of ethics, law and business. But since I am not the composer, artist or copyright holder I don't see any problem with them playing.
VG:
Also, the masterdiscs are a very rare and pretty expensive item to obtain, but it doesn't interest many fans, because it is just an item. The recordings are already available.
BoboDS:
Which recordings? Because at least Six Blade Knife alternate, Tel Road demo, Private Invest demo, What's the matter demo are different judgding from the description text he posted. Not sure about the Solid Rock, to lazy to take out the Private Sessions, or Sultans, because haven't read that one on his forum. And if they were already available, what is this debate about then?
VG:
I don't mean acetates, I mean the copper metal discs that were used to create the vinyl records.
BoboDS:
Still, I am more and more convinced that he doesn't want to share it and all this is bollocks, than convinced that he is being loyal and such.
VG:
I can't judge a man's character, if I don't know him well. I always try to suppose the best until I am proven wrong. I don't try to defend Mimmo, I only try to find a logic reason. If he does not share for other reasons, is a personal choice of (maybe) an ethical dimension, that like "The Straits" case, I don't think we should go there, at least not more than sharing a personal opinion. It is fruitless, because everyone is entitled to his reasoning and opinion and should not try to convince anybody. After all music is pleasure, passion, whatever ... and should be treated as such. We are here to share about the artist we commonly enjoy. We should not feel anxiety about such things. (Although this might be exactly the proof we are fans! ;) )
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THE Floyd demo's, it is animals AND wish you were here stuff, is brilliant, different, and hit like a nuclear bomb in the Floyd circles. I for one absolutely love it
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I completely understand bodoDS and have very similar feelings. I prefer not to know about existence of these treasures if I can't access them as a fan. If an artist's management keeps unreleased recordings / demos / acetates, that is a different story. They don't want to publish them for a specific reason. But if a fan (or a person not professionally associated with an artist) has an access to these, and just shows them off to the rest of fellow fans it just doesn't feel right IMHO. Have something and not able to share? Enjoy it yourself.
I personally don't enjoy looking at pictures of ultra rare stuff that I will not be able to listen to. Call me a weirdo.
That being said, I am impressed by the fact that the guy managed to obtain these treasures somehow.
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I completely understand bodoDS and have very similar feelings. I prefer not to know about existence of these treasures if I can't access them as a fan. If an artist's management keeps unreleased recordings / demos / acetates, that is a different story. They don't want to publish them for a specific reason. But if a fan (or a person not professionally associated with an artist) has an access to these, and just shows them off to the rest of fellow fans it just doesn't feel right IMHO. Have something and not able to share? Enjoy it yourself.
I personally don't enjoy looking at pictures of ultra rare stuff that I will not be able to listen to. Call me a weirdo.
That being said, I am impressed by the fact that the guy managed to obtain these treasures somehow.
I suppose then one could relate it to a museum in that you cannot have access to the Mona Lisa you've just seen hanging in The Louvre? Have you never been to a museum? I wish I could hear or rather have these treasures too but why not just be happy for him? :)
We know now, at least, that these acetates do exist.
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Museums are publicly accessible, that's what they are for. Picture of a picture works for me. Picture of the music does not.
Knowing that these things exist does not make me feel happy. I am happy for the collector, I'm just plain jealous, that all :)
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I should start by saying that I have absolutely no idea as to the provenance of these various acetates, test discs and so on. What I should add, however, is that, within Dylan World, it is known that rare discs such as these sometimes turn out to be modern fabrications and that, in part at least, these have been manufactured in Italy. Mostly, the discs have been purchased in good faith by people who have been disappointed to hear that others find it difficult to accept that they are other than genuine.
I may sound like I'm pouring cold water on these discs but I am not. I am merely suggesting that an element of caution is required.
If you wish to see the sort of thing that goes on, you may care to read this page of what are termed "Questionable Releases" on this highly regarded Dylan website:
http://www.searchingforagem.com/Misc/Questionable.htm
I should add that this pratice has been going on for at least 30 years. I well remember a spate of Columbia Reference Recording discs in Britain back in the 1980s. There certainly were genuine Columbia Reference Recording discs with Dylan material but someone appropriated the labels, changed the details, tweaked an existing recording in some way, pressed up a so-called Columbia Reference Recording disc of their own and then sold it. Having done that, they did it again using a different track. And again. And they all came out through one person. These fakes were, in the strange way that these things work, collectable - but they weren't genuine.
I stress that I am NOT saying that these discs are fake. I simply do not know and, as I lack the necessary knowledge, could not possibly pass such an opinion. I am merely passing on knowledge from my own experience/expertise in respect of another performer.
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Museums are publicly accessible, that's what they are for. Picture of a picture works for me. Picture of the music does not.
Knowing that these things exist does not make me feel happy. I am happy for the collector, I'm just plain jealous, that all :)
Thats a honest post, I am too ;D
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I stress that I am NOT saying that these discs are fake. I simply do not know and, as I lack the necessary knowledge, could not possibly pass such an opinion. I am merely passing on knowledge from my own experience/expertise in respect of another performer.
These are genuine. I know Mimmo from a long long time, and its the most serious fan and collector you can meet. If it was fake, he NEVER EVER would had showed to the world.
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I stress that I am NOT saying that these discs are fake. I simply do not know and, as I lack the necessary knowledge, could not possibly pass such an opinion. I am merely passing on knowledge from my own experience/expertise in respect of another performer.
Thanks for your post: it's not only legitimate, even necessary, since there are so many fakes around and it's appropriate to alert the collectors.
In this case, however, I would reassure you. Mimmo is not the kind of person who buys the first fake that comes in his hands. Most of (if not all) the rarities of Dire Straits he owns, he knew before buying them and he knew what to look for. Mimmo, for his collection travels throughout Europe and even in the U.S., turning to the right people and doing the right questions. I'll tell you more: Mimmo doesn't need to address to others to authenticate his items simply because, if there is anyone in the world, capable of authenticating a Dire Straits item, that's just Mimmo; and the collectors around the world turn to him when they have some doubt. As an example, read between the credits of the Dire Museum of Mikel Camps
http://silvertown.free.fr/museu/credits.html (http://silvertown.free.fr/museu/credits.html)
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I stress that I am NOT saying that these discs are fake. I simply do not know and, as I lack the necessary knowledge, could not possibily pass such an opinion. I am merely passing on knowledge from my own experience/expertise in respect of another performer.
Thanks for your post: it's not only legitimate, even necessary, since there are so many fakes around and it's appropriate to alert the collectors.
In this case, however, I would reassure you. Mimmo is not the kind of person who buys the first fake that comes in his hands. Most of (if not all) the rarities of Dire Straits he owns, he knew before buying them and he knew what to look for. Mimmo, for his collection travels throughout Europe and even in the U.S., turning to the right people and doing the right questions. I'll tell you more: Mimmo doesn't need to address to others to authenticate his items simply because, if there is anyone in the world, capable of authenticating a Dire Straits item, that's just Mimmo; and the collectors around the world turn to him when they have some doubt. As an example, read between the credits of the Dire Museum of Mikel Camps
http://silvertown.free.fr/museu/credits.html (http://silvertown.free.fr/museu/credits.html)
:clap :clap :clap
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Museums are publicly accessible, that's what they are for. Picture of a picture works for me. Picture of the music does not.
Knowing that these things exist does not make me feel happy. I am happy for the collector, I'm just plain jealous, that all :)
Thats a honest post, I am too ;D
Me too but I have to go over that feeling.
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I also think it have nothing to do with sharing. It's if like Mark would 'publish' an album with song titles only. Collectors are strange people. Even Mark not a guitar collector, every of his guitars has it's own shot. What 'pictures of music' has I have no idea since I was a kid. Great saying, by the way, koobaa.
Good example of sharing is Isaac, he says he travels after Mark, so he working on a great diary. People who post pictures of music just want to tease us, I think. If he can do a collection, so can I, I don't need so many references for this. Or I must be his friend in order to listen to these. So how I would make a friendship? 'Hi man, I want to listen all this shit what you have'? I just can't understand.
I know now that studio version of Telegraph Road without fade-out exist. And so what? Cool, the guy can listen to it, I'm feeling very happy for him.
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of course I am jealous too, but I think the main question is : are these versions really worth to listen ?
the uncut version of Sultans appeared with guitar hero, and it didn't add much imho, only one more lick and that's all
so, what really add this uncut version of telegraph road ? few seconds more ? and ? what's the deal ?
as for the demo version, the song was composed and played during 80-81 tour, so if you want to hear a "demo" version of this song, you can
I was listening to wiesbaden 2nd night yesterday, and you can really hear the" work in progress" for this song
I think that demos for songs never been played live (like e.g. communique or hand in, hand) would be more interesting, musically.
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Not envious, not jealous.
Agree with JF, on the rest.
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I find fade out frustrating.
My top 2 frutrating one :
It Never Rain
Are We In Trouble Now
As they are both last album song I turn the volume up to make it sound as long as they can.
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I find fade out frustrating.
My top 2 frutrating one :
It Never Rain
Are We In Trouble Now
As they are both last album song I turn the volume up to make it sound as long as they can.
And how about Hill farmer's blues? I always get the feeling it ends even before it starts...
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This was the surprise that was held for the live shows!
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Oh lord I hate fade-outs, Hill Farmer's Blues, It Never Rains, Money For Nothing and most of all On Every Street and Telegraph Road. How hard can it be to think of a good ending??
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of course I am jealous too, but I think the main question is : are these versions really worth to listen ?
the uncut version of Sultans appeared with guitar hero, and it didn't add much imho, only one more lick and that's all
so, what really add this uncut version of telegraph road ? few seconds more ? and ? what's the deal ?
as for the demo version, the song was composed and played during 80-81 tour, so if you want to hear a "demo" version of this song, you can
I was listening to wiesbaden 2nd night yesterday, and you can really hear the" work in progress" for this song
I think that demos for songs never been played live (like e.g. communique or hand in, hand) would be more interesting, musically.
or milan or san remo 1981, great early versions of TR
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So in a way demos are not economically viable ALONE thus not a very big loss.
Exactly.
I just try to justify and understand why he is not sharing.
Exactly.
This was my whole point.
Because of course unrealesed material (demos) is illegal, released is legal. But, lets consider the trackers, big name bands, hundreds of other bands. There are such demos and other leaked materials there is no way they were obtained with the artist's consent. Are they legal? Most likely not. Are they being shared? Yes. Do most of the bands go after them? Answer this for yourselves.
Because if it was all strictly about being / not being legal, hah, this would be a very black-or-white world.
It is like trespassing. The fact that there is no fence/isn't locked and nobody catches you, doesn't mean you are not breaking the law.
Lets consider, if somebody now shared it on a tracker somewhere. How many people would jump to get it the second they spot it. Would there be someone from us, this forum? Answer this for yourselves.
I can also ask, would somebody steal from a shop if he/she saw that somebody else has stolen before him? Probably not. But the former? I am not so sure. My point is, no matter how well are the rules written, there are always some instances, when they are bent. So I just can't buy this justifying, that's all.
Or he is just saving them for a later release.
Imho, to put it mildy, I don't believe it at all that we will get any unreleased DS material ever again (Please prove me wrong Mark :) )
I can't judge a man's character, if I don't know him well. I always try to suppose the best until I am proven wrong. I don't try to defend Mimmo, I only try to find a logic reason.
I know I know. Sorry I don't want to judge anybody, that was not my intention, I am just saying that I really feel like all this is just justyfing...
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BoboDS, I have already said, in defense of bootlegs (including studio out-takes), on a different thread. (Can't spot it right now) I completely understand the urge and curiosity and I also mentioned, that many times the fact these recordings were saved for the future generations, containing absolutely amazing things, was due to the most loyal fans obtaining them (creating or buying or whatever) and preserving them. The internet was a nice place to do this preservation, because lots of people can have instant access. Unfortunately, if you see what is going on right now, you will understand that this is changing fast. And it is only a matter of time until you won't be able to upload (therefore not download either) any material with copyrights and POTENTIAL to make money.
And in this case, I would probably seek to find them if they were uploaded somewhere, although I would definitely enjoy them more in an officially release, since there would be an added bonus of better sound/correct speed and (usually ) more sophisticated artwork.
So let me know if and when they are somewhere to be found and I will do the same for you! ;)
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Think about the 2008 RAH IEM stealth...
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I find fade out frustrating.
My top 2 frutrating one :
It Never Rain
Are We In Trouble Now
As they are both last album song I turn the volume up to make it sound as long as they can.
Oh lord I hate fade-outs, Hill Farmer's Blues, It Never Rains, Money For Nothing and most of all On Every Street and Telegraph Road. How hard can it be to think of a good ending??
sometimes proper ending fits more and sometimes fade out fits more to the song, it give the feeling that it never ends...
to me, fade out si not alwasy frustrating, it depends on the song
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or milan or san remo 1981, great early versions of TR
Yes. San Remo is the first I heard from this tour, and is really good, both soundwise and musicwise
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Here it is Bobo DS!
http://www.amarkintime.org/forum/index.php/topic,2185.0.html
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Holy macarone vgonis, a tough thread to read. Recently I am reading the forum less and less and less, but I skimmed through it, and I'd say we are on the same note regarding live recs (with demos we're getting there :) ).
I hope that we will hear all that unreleased material some day.
Mimmo has stuff you can't even imagine of
Telegraph Road complete without the final fade out
Tunnel of love complete without the final fade out
Several unreleased soundboard shows
and tons of others
I don't really care about songs without the final fade out. It adds a couple of seconds, but whatever, playing it live, there's no fade out. I am more interested in never heard live shows (SBDs), demos,...
Several unreleased soundboard shows? The same question from me, (I know it is exhaustive to read it again), but:
IEM Los Angeles 2001, I wonder how was that one obtained...?
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IEM Los Angeles 2001, I wonder how was that one obtained...?
I guess someone with a HF reciever on the same frequency, and that's it.
no need to know someone in the crew to ask for some reocording or so
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Mimmo is not one of the many collectors, he is the biggest collector of Dire straits (and Knopfler) material in the world!
:clap
He' s The Collector
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Mimmo is not one of the many collectors, he is the biggest collector of Dire straits (and Knopfler) material in the world!
:clap
He' s The Collector
Well, the biggest collection from a collector who has made his known to the world. For all you know, maybe I have a larger collection...
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dmg, did I mention lately that it was a real pleasure to meet you in London last year and that I immediately had the feeling of a great new friendship coming up?
;D :wave ;D :wave ;D :wave ;D :wave ::) ::) ::)
LE
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dmg, did I mention lately that it was a real pleasure to meet you in London last year and that I immediately had the feeling of a great new friendship coming up?
;D :wave ;D :wave ;D :wave ;D :wave ::) ::) ::)
LE
:lol
I'll admit that I'm really only interested in bootlegs so although I have most circulated ones, that's about the extent of my collection. I have a few LP bootlegs and rarities too but nothing on this scale.
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So I suppose somebody of these collectors also have the Cafe Racers tape that Dave Pask was supposed to have once...?
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http://www.amazon.com/Kim-Carnes-Cafe-Racers/dp/B000O4L88A
The closer to recordings with the name cafe racers is this record! ;D
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So I suppose somebody of these collectors also have the Cafe Racers tape that Dave Pask was supposed to have once...?
Supposed? Myles Palmer said in his book to have listened to some.
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Just read this thread.
Wow. Really exciting to discover about these alternate versions on acetate. The version of TOL with echo on Marks vocal sounds fantastic and I am very excited to hear about a different cut of Six Blade.
From reading the translations it appears that it was pretty standard practice for near finished works on progress to be taken after a hard days work in the studio as acetates to be listened in a home environment or for record execs to monitor output from the studio. Cd recorders didnt exist back then hence cut to record.
We have therefore to assume these are official recordings albeit intended to never be heard by anyone apart from a very select few. I would dearly love to hear these recordings but having reflected on it I am quite happy just to know they exist. Why? Because for right or wrong there is at least a margin of possibility we may one day hear these. If not, well hey, these cuts may not even be that different at all to the versions we know and love.
Just think. ..there must be more of these acetates out there.
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Sorry LE
Imagine having a record player that could record things. An acetate is basically a 'blank' record, which a groove is cut into live of a recorded sound, say from a mastertape of a recording session.
Acetates would have been used in the 70s and 80s when there was no other way to get a 'draft' copy of work in progress. So say MK cut Six Blade Knife in the studio and then he said, 'hey I am not sure about this, I want to take it home to have a listen to on my record player'. The only way to do that would have been to cut a copy onto an acetate record for him to take away. So that is what leads me to believe that there must be many of these acetates floating around with draft or alternative cuts on them.
Acetates (sometimes called slates) are commonly used by reggae soundsystems who want unique mixes of songs to give them the edge over their competitor soundsystems and djs in the dancehall. So they would do a unique mix of a song from the mastetape and record it directly to acetate. They could then play this acetate record on a standard record player. See a video here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MfgmRl-XNo
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Now that's an explanation. And so fast. Thanks a lot! :thumbsup
LE
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http://shop.totallyvinyl.com/record/4880-dire-straits-audiodisc-capitol-magnetics-7-inch-acetate-autographed
From a quick web search anyone could have got hold of what's the matter film this site on acetate
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http://shop.totallyvinyl.com/record/4880-dire-straits-audiodisc-capitol-magnetics-7-inch-acetate-autographed
From a quick web search anyone could have got hold of what's the matter film this site on acetate
It says that Solid Rock is on it too.
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Looks like a similar, if not the same copy, Mimmo has. Of course it is long out of stock!
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Looks like a similar, if not the same copy, Mimmo has. Of course it is long out of stock!
I wonder how much that would cost if they did happen to have one in stock... :think
Any ideas?
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I guess it usually depends on how much you are willing to pay. That is why the price in non auction sites is either pretty low (if you desire it more) or pretty high (if you desire it as well, but can't afford it) ;D On ebay, Dylan acetates I have come across usually go for more than 3000$, in cases well over 5000$. I have seen Beatles hit these numbers with first editions! But they are the toppermost! I guess DS that are not that collectible, can fetch 1000-1500$ for such rare items. The most expensive DS record I have paid for was around 100 Euros, so I guess out of my league.
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http://www.popsike.com/DIRE-STRAITSLOVE-OVER-GOLDMEGA-RARE-10-ACETATE/300526334208.html
This is probably just a test press but this went for 100 gbp
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Stunning! If it is an acetate 100GBP was a bargain! It looks like an acetate, 10'' and with solid rock on side 2, but you are correct, it is probably a test pressing for the alchemy 10'' single release. But it is gone!
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Stunning! If it is an acetate 100GBP was a bargain! It looks like an acetate, 10'' and with solid rock on side 2, but you are correct, it is probably a test pressing for the alchemy 10'' single release. But it is gone!
A test pressing is not an acetate.
They are different things for different purpose.
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Yes, I know! That is why I wonder! He states it is an acetate. The reason I tend to believe this is a test pressing is the content and format. It must be the test pressing for the 10'' release of alchemy's single Love over gold/Solid rock, so hardly an acetate. But just in case, they did an acetate from the masters, to check the version or the mix? So a fair possibility it has a different mix, or even a different version from another day?
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Whatever it is the point is you can buy it off the internet...so there is hope
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Whatever it is the point is you can buy it off the internet...so there is hope
Many things can be found on the internet. It is a matter of chance to see them, to be able to afford them and sometimes for other fans to miss them so the price won't go sky high. I remember that Mimmo found the Solid rock acetate (different version) through a Record collector add. I know because I saw it too, but came second and when I told Mimmo, he told me that he already got it, by placing an add at the next record collector issue! Test pressings are easy to find and not that expensive.
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Whatever it is the point is you can buy it off the internet...so there is hope
What I meant by this was a reference to earlier in this thread when people were concerned these acetate cuts may never be made public even to fans through sharing. My view is if they can find their way onto a sale site on the net then there is a good possibility some friendly collector may one day choose to share these cuts with other fans. We can leave the morality of that for another day, but I was trying to illustrate there is hope we may one day hear some unreleased gems even for those of us who have to spend money on food and bills rather than highly priced artifacts.
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;) Hope more people think like you do about spending money! I found out the hard way and now sell my collection to make ends meet.